Joan of Arc was trans????

The net gets wider and wider: I've seen George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans if we want to 'deadname' her) referred to as 'trans' because she used a male pen name.

Wait... so by this logic (which of course has nothing to do with the fact male names got their books published much easier than female names of course) that hateful and bigoted transphobe JK Rowling* is also trans. After all he/she/they have books published under a male name. Maybe he/she/they is gender fluid like Phillipa/Pip Bunce, or Eddie Izzard as they also still use the name JK Rowling.

*not my opinion. I think she's a hero(ine)

I am really feeling like men are not too bothered because trans men are not as vocal and trying to encroach in their spaces.

It's also because even if they did, it's really not a threat to most men. Because of sex, most transmen do not pose any danger to men, even if they were as pushy and aggressive about it as some TW are towards women.

Also ladies,

I was watching an interesting documentary about a woman who had a horrible horrible experience as a young woman. It happened in the 19th century in Hungary . She was raped and forced to marry her employer. He was abusive and eventually she ran away with her child and began to live as a man. She started murdering the abusive husbands of women it the town where she was. Women were coming to her and hiring her to kill these men. So she was by no means an Angel.

I think she dressed as a man more so for protection and to disguise herself. But of course.. there was the “we are not sure if she was trans” or how she identified obligatory speech there.

If any woman from any period of time wore trousers then I think she’s going to be transed.

This whole Joan of Arc is trans narrative is based on sexist stereotypes and is offensive and ridiculous. Short hair? Man. Doing anything outside of cooking and cleaning and having babies? A man… I thought we were moving away from gender stereotypes. Yet here we are with such archaic and outdated ideas of what women should do it makes my head ache.

Joan of Arc was punished because she was a woman doing what she was not supposed to. So people are going to argue that part of the reason that she was burned at the stake was not due to her daring to be a woman who went against what society said she should do? She was punished for being a woman who dared speak her mind. Called a witch.

How they can argue she was trans is really beyond me. She never once called herself anything other than a woman.

As usual we don’t listen to women I suppose. A woman can literally tell the world a truth and not be believed. I should not be surprised in a way, but it’s very disheartening that this is happening. I predict there will be more of this as time goes along.

I was looking at the news at home for more info. You know what I think. That silence is that people are scared and afraid of being that “one”. But as soon as one speaks out I think more and more will share the same views.

It is always the same. It’s always women getting cancelled and shamed for calling out this nonsense. I am really feeling like men are not too bothered because trans men are not as vocal and trying to encroach in their spaces. I do wonder if this changes, if more men will become more vocal about it. We will see.

This seems to have been creeping in more and more - anyone who made attempts to act outside of the 'norms' for their sex being labelled trans. Which by definition means any women having achievements, actions and thoughts that deviated from a relatively narrow path compared to the present day no longer belong to women's history.

Given its a field where you already need to struggle against who determined what was worthy to record and with women placed outside of 'important' events, its one more step to erasure. Is it so hard to believe that women, given the opportunity to have some sort of control over their lives, would take that and take it as women?

The best estimate at the moment is that around 1 per cent of the population might identify as trans, including people who identify as non-binary. That would mean about 600,000 trans and non-binary people in Britain, out of a population of over 60 million.

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans#trans-people-britain

However, RMW’s book on trans law has a very different number:

Accurate figures are hard to come by, but a good estimate of the numbers of trans individuals in the population might be between one in two thousand to one in five thousand of the UK population. Such a number means that most of the UK population will not know a trans individual personally, and most small to medium sized employers will not have a trans employee.

So approx 13,000 - 35,000 people.

www.lawbriefpublishing.com/2021/06/free-chapter-from-a-practical-guide-to-transgender-law-by-robin-moira-white-nicola-newbegin/

Numbers seem to change depending on whichever narrative is being pushed.

@peadarm I meant, does the original poster have a source for Schools Diversity Week suggesting that Joan of Arc was trans? I've not been able to find anything.

This is exactly the sort of grass roots story she needs

I expect the figure will double or triple soon. And 'sources' based on framed questionnaires may well appear.

Do you have a source for this?

The net gets wider and wider: I've seen George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans if we want to 'deadname' her) referred to as 'trans' because she used a male pen name.

Ash Sarkar was on the radio this morning saying transwomen were under-represented in the Olympics because 1% of the population is trans. The transwoman who was on Woman's Hour the other day used the same figure.

I think that the situation is similar here in the UK, the majority of the public do not actually agree with this, however politicians are captured and most people don't care enough to be bothered by it.

Kajsa Ekis Ekman and others like her in Sweden have faced being cancelled from speaking at events, called hateful etc because they speak openly about this, and because they, as you say, are honest about the true biological sex.
I, too, hope that the tide is turning both in the UK and in Sweden! Most of the people I know in Sweden on FB etc who consider themselves progressive and compassionate are sharing and liking posts, articles etc that are very much pro trans ideology and I think, same as here, it is the accepted "progressive" view to hold in Sweden. Whenever I raise a gender critical point in conversations in Sweden I am met with an uncomfortable silence (just as I am here in the UK).

Definitely update us on how things are once you have moved back, I would love to think that you are right.
Also check out Kvinnolobbyn and their podcasts on the subject, as well as Aleksa Lundberg.

I don’t see parents being ok with boys on girls sports. So while they make this decision now, I see parents upon seeing their daughters competing with biological boys not being happy.

I really do think the Olympics will show the world just how detrimental this all is.

Yes I’m aware and I think we speak a bit more openly about not agreeing with this sort of thing.

I don’t know anyone at home who agrees with self ID nor with boys or men competing in women’s sports. It was bound to have issues with men self reporting and putting women at risk.

Of course I don’t know everyone in Sweden, but I have never once heard anyone say they are ok with self ID or of trans women or girls in sports. It’s on thing to have celebrities and politicians push it, but I don’t think the larger Swedish public has ever really supported this sort of thing.

To me for some reason discussions here around it do not seem rooted in reality. While we seem to be (perhaps I’m wrong) a bit more willing to be honest that these are men wanting access to women’s spaces. I think that changes alot of discourse around the discussion.

We are going back soon so I will be interested to see how this pans out. There are also huge issues with this in America. So the global discussions around self ID I really think are a huge battle ground for women’s rights at this moment.

One thing that’s going to change is that we now have a self ID trans woman in the Tokyo Olympics. Now everyone will see with their own eyes how harmful self ID is. I really do think Sweden will at some point do away with self ID because you just can’t justify doing away with women’s rights. Or at least alter it in a way that changes to acknowledge this is not beneficial for society.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t see any other way. How are we going to ensure women’s spaces remain women’s spaces? No one is ever going to convince me that putting a man in a women’s prison is ok, nor a man competing in women’s sports as ok.

I wouldn’t want my daughter competing with biological boys in sports. And I myself don’t want biological men no matter how they identify in women’s only spaces.

I’ve also seen people saying that because these women are in prison it doesn’t matter. They are being punished. But I do not agree at all with this. They are under the care of the prison and duty of care means they should not be placed in an undue harm.

Frankly, there is absolutely no justification for men in women’s prisons ever. And it is becoming more and more common for self ID prisoners who happen to be male to say they are women so they can go to women’s prisons. It’s not only an issue in Sweden. There are many in America. Many in the UK. The truth is this is convenient for men to self
ID at the expense of women.

I think we will see how things pan out after the outcry from the Olympics. I don’t see self ID being seen as so great after that. Obviously the public is already against it.

I’m going to order her book.

@MarshmallowSwede I am also Swedish and I wonder if you have been following this debate i Sweden in recent years? You say: "No one is going to play pretend and act like women are not women however and not going to act like trans women are women. You can be what you like, but biology matters, as well as language."

Politics in Sweden around self ID and gender identity are not that different from here in the UK, in fact in many ways it is worse. Do you know that we have a convicted murderer who murdered and dismembered their girlfriend, then identified as a woman and was moved to a women's prison?

nyheter24.se/nyheter/935942-styckmordaren-kristoffer-johansson-blev-kim-marie-sa-lever-hon-idag

That is self ID.

Do you know that Swedish gymnasts up to age 18 can choose which "gender" category they compete in?

www.svt.se/sport/gymnastik/gymnaster-far-valja-tavlingsklass-oavsett-juridiskt-kon

That is self ID.

There are many, many more examples of this, I am surprised that you think things are so different in Sweden. There is a huge debate finally going on about this in Sweden now, due to very brave feminists such as Kajsa Ekis Ekman and her new book: Om könets existens: tankar om den nya synen på kön.

Kate Bush did a beautiful song about Joan of Arc called Joanni . Rabid mis-gendering

https://open.spotify.com/track/0Zrt8pmJiC2suL3nOtY91a?si=ArzyfJZsSuqhthfQ1UxHpg&dl_branch=1

Or OMD

https://open.spotify.com/track/3k61ZhyGGjLsOHQWnXCCSz?si=UfTHAwYWRUW0O0nDFQPGlQ&dl_branch=1

Actual violence by both artists. Shocking

@RedDogsBeg

Boudicca was obviously a man then as she fought and led armies, although looking at her statue she wasn't wearing trousers

There's a point, the Romans wore something akin to skirts. Does that mean the entirety of the Roman legions were trans? An entire army of women, now that would be progressive!

Yah! and all those Victorian trans coal mine labourers. It all makes sense now 🙃

In which case, it is the teacher who is mistaken and hasn't a clue what she's talking about. Equating a single mother with neglect is right out of the patriarchy handbook and has no place in ANY shade of feminism.

What makes you think that this teacher was a 'radical feminist', Tangledtresses.

Radical feminism does not scorn single parents.

You are mistaken.

I’m from Stockholm. I’m Swedish.

I am not saying it is repressive. I don’t think anyone would describe Sweden as repressive. And I didn’t say we do not have gay people or trans people. I said we value social cohesion. Meaning people in general don’t want to be disruptive. Gay straight or trans.. everyone blends in. Of course Sweden is open to all people. As long as you aren’t disruptive of society. And no one is “special” in Sweden. Everyone is treated well and equal.

Again the social cohesion things is especially important and no one should think they are special over anyone else in society. And your rights don’t matter more than the rights of another in society. This used to be common everywhere. But it seems to be less and less. Scandinavia isn’t some bastion of doing everything right, but we do at least expect everyone to be respected and you don’t get to be “special” at the expense of others.

This isn’t the case in the UK it seems from my observation. And that’s fine.. different country. But Swedes, while open, we really try to have a good society for all. And that again.. means social cohesion.

That’s the whole point and one reason why we rate so high in wellness and have a good society. There is no one who is singled out as a special group. If our model of what a functioning society is is unpalatable for
Anyone who feels they need special treatment, then Sweden probably isn’t the place for them. But if you want to integrate and “blend in” and join in society then it’s wonderful.

No one is going to play pretend and act like women are not women however and not going to act like trans women are women. You can be what you like, but biology matters, as well as language.

We definitely are not going to take a person from history and completely change the narrative around who they are.

And we value science. People can call themselves whatever they want, but biology is biology. We won’t punish anyone for believing they are whatever they think they are, but rationality and science matter.

The British can do what you like in your land and your society. But it definitely doesn’t seem to be working out well. Does it?

Sure come to Sweden on a holiday. We will take your money. It all spends the same.

God, it’s a misogynists dream come true, removing all of the women that managed to get their names in the history books whilst living in such a sexist society, can now be re-written as men.

All they need now is to find Hitler had a thing for wearing suspenders and what do you know, all those evils are now attributed to a woman. 🙄

Oh I posted to early, the most important point, I believe Swedes have been able to change their legal gender before surgery since the seventies
Maybe you just don't notice the transwomen because they blend in

Sweden is gay friendly, weren't they the first to make homosexuality legal, gay marriage etc ?
You make it sound very repressive but that's not how I remember it.
It's a top place for a nice Trans holiday