Commemorating the spacious Nest of Vipers

Great post OP. I would also have treatment of lesbians on my list.

I have always considered myself a feminist- but until I had children I fell in to the trap of believing that most of the heavy lifting needed to achieve equality was done. I accepted without question the 'fact# that women's careers will be impacted by having children and there is nothing that can be done about that (it's just biology) and that most of the very senior positions in business/government were taken by men just because women chose to prioritise family/lacked ambition. Indirect discrimination that most daren't even mention in the workplace (for fear of being 'that' woman) made me challenge this.

I had utterly swallowed the notion that saying transwomen were not women was akin to homophobia or racism. When the subject of transwomen using women's toilets was raised I was SURE that the only people who would want to do this were poor vulnerable people who felt trapped in the wrong body and just wanted to have a wee without being stared at. I utterly bought in to the #bekind idea. I thought anyone who disagreed was ignorant and bigoted.

I had always felt uneasy about prostitution/porn and the impact on women but accepted that this was probably just because I was a bit of a prude and/or projecting my own feelings on other women who are perfectly happy with their roles.

What started with an absent minded read of the FWR board as a way to pass a few minutes became a wake up call. The first very naive comment I posted was shot down immediately by another posted. I felt uncomfortable and attacked, but her challenge included links to studies, facts and statistics whereas my post was just based on 'common knowledge' that I had no back up for.

I am angry and bemused by the ease with which the TWAW mantra has been accepted without challenge by so many organisations without reference to any actual facts. But I can see why some people are so keen to silence the well informed women who post here.

I don't mind this new space, if anything I think people are likely to click out of curiosity that this topic gets its own forum.

I am so grateful to this board and my friend in real life who signposted me to it. I have learnt so much from the intellectual disagreements and am learning every day. I've really changed my attitude to surrogacy and prostitution since being on these boards and getting factual information to go away and digest. Looking forward to more healthy debate without the boring derails.

You lot have totally changed my feminism. My eyes are wide open now, and I’m gradually gaining the courage and confidence to formulate and state my position on issues I’ve sat in seething, silent anger on for far too long. (My peri menopausal, ‘don’t give a fuck’ 40s are feeling quite exciting! ).

(I’m also having the best conversations of my life with my Mum, who is in her 70s now and was a second wave activist. We’ve bonded more than ever over the issues that come up on these boards and our animated, often angry chats about them. We went down to the Royal Academy together at the weekend so she could tell them in no uncertain terms that they could stick her membership where the sun doesn’t shine over the whole Jess de Wahls debacle. It was a fun day out .

I love this place.

Fantastic thread, OP, and a great reminder of why this forum has been such a brilliant resource. I am absolutely sure that one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, we have been successful in pushing back the gender madness in this country is the existence of this forum. Thanks to all the brilliant women who post here for your wisdom and thoughtfulness.

The Rules of Misogyny have expanded beyond 8 (one of them is mine) but their initial location on gc Reddit of course got nuked, and other sites also no longer available or not freely accessible. This one works (at the moment):

https://4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/

And this one

https://trollbusterxtra.wordpress.com/2017/08/09/rules-of-misogyny/

But maybe we need to keep a copy here as well.

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women’s opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.
10th rule of Misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
11th rule of misogyny: Whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.
12th rule of misogyny: Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.
13th rule of misogyny: It is always far worse for a woman to name the abusive behavior than it is for a man to exhibit the abusive behavior.
14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.
15th rule of misogyny: Men are better at performing male fantasy femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.
16th rule of Misogyny: Men are the default human and women are other.

This thread perfectly illustrates why some people put so much effort in trying to silence women talking and getting our views deleted and censored.

Like many others I was of the #bekind mindset - I ended up here one night just to see how awful the bigotry was. I read lots of posts about biological fact, etc. when it struck me that this was the supposed transphobia that was literally killing males!

Oh, I forgot that about wakes! It's all sad and then someone cracks out the hip flask!

I have a long speech prepared for the occasion [footers about in bustle]

• MN has taught me how to question orthodoxies, how to challenge my own assumptions, how to be a bit braver, more assertive, how to be an activist, write to MPs, alert the media, ask questions, look at bias, think harder, be more compassionate, ask more questions. And much more. I owe FWR an awful lot.

Also agree that disagreement and learning how to debate/discuss is a phenomenal asset of this board.

[finds hipflask in bustle]

Your very good health, ladies, and all those who came before.

Came to the board after a wake up call from my daughter a few years back who had lesbian friends feeling under pressure. Its really been useful following the threads about whats happening with court cases like Alison Bailey and Maya Forstater. And sorting out the sex/gender issue - thanks to all the people who put time into working through this and explaining the detail of where the flaws are. I`d just left the Green Party after a particularly bruising conference and this board felt like lots of friends saying: "you werent wrong". I hope lots of the old vipers are still with us!

I'll have a double triple-sec and gin, love.
I mean, a secs & gin, dear

Could it be one of those very drunken wakes Arabella or perhaps it could be a woke

It has been utterly illuminating and educating for me and I appreciate it so much. I still feel that MNHQ have let us down badly.

Great thread. There are some great resources signposted here too.
and:
I've learnt far more about feminism from the disagreements on here than the agreements. Issues surrounding surrogacy are an excellent example and I remember in particular a poster who no longer posts here who was really instrumental in that. And it wasn't because everyone agreed - far from it! Many times I would sit nodding my head at posts from both 'sides' of a discussion.

I agree with this so much! That's why I'm always so desperate for the posters who come here with the opposing point of view to be able to articulately argue in a decent manner - I want to be challenged. I think it's been eye-opening how rarely this occurs on some topics (some, not all). The questions that get asked and never adequately answered say a lot.

I feel like I'm at a wake.

I forgot this one.
I had no idea Lesbians were coming under such awful pressure. It just didn't occur to me that this was possible www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4272756-Only-21-lesbian-bars-remain-in-America
This is just one of lots of threads on the subject

Barracker's pronouns are rohypnol.
Lang pointing out safeguarding & coercive control
Surragacy
The Transwidows threads.
The rules of mysogyny.

So much basically. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Also the campaigns and the grass roots funding. for all the brave women who have taken the fight to court, and those who have put it in the public eye - and kept it there.

Just thinking more about this and one of the great things about the FWR board was that points made had to be backed up with evidence. It could be slightly intimidating to start with if you only had a wooly idea about what you were talking about but there were so many times that I went to make a point, tried to find evidence and found I was completely wrong! Or someone else would say 'have you considered this' and put a whole new slant on what I was thinking about.

That's what worries me a bit about the feminist:chat board. A poster yesterday made a claim on a thread and I asked if they had any evidence that what they were claiming as fact was the case. The answer was a sort of roundabout 'well, I might be wrong, but you might also be wrong, so who cares anyway'.

I’ve also moved from a fairly liberal “let people live how they wish as long as they’re not hurting anyone” stance to a far more critical position thanks to the many threads and discussions around safe spaces, health provisions, changes to language and laws, JK Rowling, transitions in childhood etc.
I never understood the implication of gender and sex and why those terms are so important to some women.
This board absolutely taught me the power of words and language and the protection and rights they afford us - and others. Not just a woman’s issue of course but I wouldn’t even know about these things otherwise.

As others have said surrogacy has been a big one for me as well as rough sex defence, counting women, rape culture

I was always GC but I couldn’t vocalise it. I didn’t know there was a term for it.

Learned so much from these threads over the years.

The rules of misogyny have been absolutely eye opening.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3236421-so-these-ere-rules-of-misogyny

I really liked TheBewilderness too.

I don't have children, so there was loads I didn't know about schools and the current life for teenage girls. I have many friends with daughters, and now have a niece, so feel I have learnt on their behalf.

I'd never really thought about surrogacy except in a vague "that's nice for gay couples isn't it" way, and certainly had no idea about trans widows.

I don't do Twitter, so always appreciate the links to idiocy from brave correspondents from that war zone of pub bores and escaped lunatics.

@YetAnotherSpartacus Cross Post! I think the campaign you are talking about is the Make Space For Girls, which I have mentioned above.