Page 7 | So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

ArabellaScott · 2021-06-22T12:04:09+00:00

Hello, all. What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like? What subjects does it investigate? What aims does it have? Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

334bu · 22/06/2021 19:55

My biological sex is female. I don't think 'woman' is as simple as biological sex, that is where we differ obviously.I think the definition of 'woman' is currently in flux, that is why we are all having such fierce debates about it. This is a normal part of the norm life cycle -- the contestation over how to define social norms. At some point a consensus will re-establish itself.

Is this for real? No wonder ordinary women don't believe in feminism, when somebody can come out with this.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/06/2021 19:54

I'm very confused.

I thought biological essentialism is the philosophy that people's hobbies, life goals, personalities, skills and so on were determined by biology, e.g. the idea that girls innately don't like football because they are girls, will like crochet, won't be able.to read a map, and innately are repulsed by careers in STEM.

I take huge issue with That Which Must Not Be Mentioned, because I think it is essentialist and it pathologises men and women who don't conform as "born in the wrong body" in order to shore up a sexist, erroneous philosophy!

So I am very confused to hear that I am the biological essentialist. I don't think having an opinion on what words mean makes me a biological essentialist.

What do/did other people think it meant?

Clearly someone here is wrong, if people taking the opposite point of view both think the other is a biological essentialist!

MarshaBradyo · 22/06/2021 19:53

@Potteringshed

There is also a miserable irony in the fact that this thread, which I took as originally being an opportunity to suggest some areas of discussion away from the fucking trans thing has now deteriorated into flat out "so what is a woman?"

Yes and it wasn’t GC feminists who brought it up.

It’s not meant to be on here but if non GC bring it up that’s what you get.

Orangecircling · 22/06/2021 19:53

They all do!

Potteringshed · 22/06/2021 19:51

There is also a miserable irony in the fact that this thread, which I took as originally being an opportunity to suggest some areas of discussion away from the fucking trans thing has now deteriorated into flat out "so what is a woman?"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 19:50

I mean, can you define British? Who is a British person? What if they are born abroad to British parents, can they still be British? What if they come to Britain in their 30s and live here for years, can they become truly British? Interestingly, on that last question, some British people would say yes and some would say no.

Being British is a not a biological category.

CiaoForNiao · 22/06/2021 19:50

[quote AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying]@dreamingbohemian so if trans women are not female, what are they? [/quote]
Male. You know, having been born as boys and all that.

AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying · 22/06/2021 19:44

@dreamingbohemian so if trans women are not female, what are they?

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 19:44

Also, it seems strange to not have a word that precisely and accurately identifies half of humankind.

Especially when the language to describe the other half is never touched. What a surprise.

Cailleach1 · 22/06/2021 19:42

My biological sex is female. I don't think 'woman' is as simple as biological sex, that is where we differ obviously.

I suppose where I differ is that I think it is very simple that woman applies to a human of the female sex. Only reason I am a woman is by dint of my biology.

Would it not be better to come up with a name for the status you refer to as not so simple.

Also, it seems strange to not have a word that precisely and accurately identifies half of humankind.

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 19:41

I read some of these posts and feel so sad for my DC. I'm only 33- things were not like this when I was a child. When exactly did science/biology stop being respected? What a world.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 19:40

Feminism Chat is for everything BUT the inclusivity debate.

Good point. That's why I'm finding all these "why won't you go off to your silo and leave us in our space" comments a bit odd. This is not your "safe space". It's not reasonable to expect other perspectives to be silenced. There are issues which are general feminist issues which may benefit from a sex based class analysis, as well as including other perspectives.

MarshaBradyo · 22/06/2021 19:38

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It’s not a normal part of the life cycle. It’s the result of male-led lobbying centring the interests of men’s wishes and needs

This.

Exactly

I can’t believe women fall for this tripe

SelfPortraitWithEels · 22/06/2021 19:37

(Oops, sorry, Strawberry , it was an afterthought.)

SelfPortraitWithEels · 22/06/2021 19:36

... neither of which, I would contend, lead to very effective lobbying on behalf of the feline community.

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 19:35

@dreamingbohemian

My biological sex is female. I don't think 'woman' is as simple as biological sex, that is where we differ obviously.

I think the definition of 'woman' is currently in flux, that is why we are all having such fierce debates about it. This is a normal part of the norm life cycle -- the contestation over how to define social norms. At some point a consensus will re-establish itself.

I suppose for me a working definition would be anyone who lives their life as an adult human female, whether they were born as such or not. Yes, there is a certain fluidity to the definition but I think that's okay, this is normal for most aspects of identity.

I mean, can you define British? Who is a British person? What if they are born abroad to British parents, can they still be British? What if they come to Britain in their 30s and live here for years, can they become truly British? Interestingly, on that last question, some British people would say yes and some would say no.

And yet, despite this apparent muddiness, there is not really a problem in understanding what we mean when we say things like, we want to improve the lives of British people, or we want to help British children get a better education. We don't all stop and say hang on, how are you defining British? We focus on the main issue.

I think that's really what feminists like me want. We just want to get on with things. There is not much confusion, in real life, about what a woman is or what we mean when we talk about women's rights. Trans women are a tiny minority of women in the UK. Yes, there are important issues around inclusion, but these are not insurmountable.

Actually- this whole post- I just... wow. What self indulgent rubbish.

SelfPortraitWithEels · 22/06/2021 19:34

How you can anyone live as anything they are not born? How you can one live as cat if they are not born one? It makes absolutely no sense. ... unless you see "cat" as a role or a set of behaviours or stereotypes, of course. Or unless you think that artificial stripes and fur are all it takes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 19:34

It’s not a normal part of the life cycle. It’s the result of male-led lobbying centring the interests of men’s wishes and needs

This.

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 19:34

Should have been bold on the first two paras

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 19:33

*My biological sex is female. I don't think 'woman' is as simple as biological sex, that is where we differ obviously.

I think the definition of 'woman' is currently in flux, that is why we are all having such fierce debates about it. This is a normal part of the norm life cycle -- the contestation over how to define social norms. At some point a consensus will re-establish itself.*

Look up the dictionary definition of woman then, it might provide some clarity.

I mean wtf? How can the definition of woman be 'in flux'? This is not a normal part of the life cycle ffs, we are honestly in the realms of saying the earth is flat if we're saying there is any doubt on what a woman is. Again- science, as with the earth- is quite useful here, in explaining just what a woman is. And the lovely people at Oxford have put it in the dictionary for you, just in case anyone is in any doubt.

I notice you've made no mention of men- is the definition of 'man' currently 'in flux' too?

OvaHere · 22/06/2021 19:32

Is the definition of 'man' in flux? Has it ever been?

I agree with @ItDidntStop, it's not organic, it's the result of years of lobbying in the shadows with male interests in mind.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 22/06/2021 19:32

I suppose for me a working definition would be anyone who lives their life as an adult human female, whether they were born as such or not.

What does living as an adult human female entail?

Stopthisnow · 22/06/2021 19:27

I suppose for me a working definition would be anyone who lives their life as an adult human female, whether they were born as such or not.

How can one live as an adult human female if they were not born one?

How you can anyone live as anything they are not born? How you can one live as cat if they are not born one? It makes absolutely no sense.

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 22/06/2021 19:25

It’s like there’s a bonfire on the front lawn and a lot of people want to go look at the candle in the back garden.

Thanks for engaging, Freeble. It's funny, but I wrote a long response earlier, before I saw your last post with the above quote in it, and my analogy was something like:

feminism feels like a series of fires raging: DV, rape, CSA, healthcare, the sex pay gap, porn, FGM, etc etc. It's infuriating that while women are on the ground trying to address these issues, people are taking away the water they are using to put out the fire.

I don't think we can fight sexism if we can't name it.

For example, Hibo Wardere does wonderful work raising awareness and fighting FGM. She's repeatedly attacked for using the word 'female'.

Allison Bailey has spent her lifetime fighting various issues relating to equality: 'a lifelong campaigner for racial equality, lesbian, gay, and bisexual rights, and a survivor of child sexual abuse' - yet she nearly lost her job and has had to fight a mammoth battle after Stonewall tried to have her investigated and removed from her chambers - she has some interesting thoughts on BLM, etc, on her page, which I'm not allowed to link to but you can find by googling.

So, I think I feel the same way about the redefinition of 'woman' as I understand you do about race issues.

It's good to hear other perspectives, and it'll be interesting to see how this board develops. Nice to have input from people who've not felt they could post here before.

OP posts:

picklemewalnuts · 22/06/2021 19:25

@Freebleweeble , thank you for the link. I did try to use it but had no luck. I'll try on a laptop later, see if that helps.

I agree with you that there are huge issues facing black women that need addressing by all of us. When and where I have the opportunity, I act.
That said, the biggest threat to all the young women I know right now is ROGD.
I'd agree racism is the biggest threat to the young men I know.

Would you say that bame girls are as impacted by/vulnerable to trans ideology as white girls? All the young women I know who are transitioning are white. Obviously that isn't statistically significant in any way. I wondered whether there was any cultural difference that might be giving black girls a more positive identity as young women.