So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

[quote Leafstamp]@Pumperthepumper

Who says women includes trans women? The TRAs do IME. Have you not seen this?[/quote]
You’re suggesting that if i start a thread in feminist chat about smear tests I have to say ‘women and trans women’ - and I’m saying, that’s bollocks.

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

Dreaming bohemian , it may seem disingenuous or pedantic to you, but asking what feminism looks like if you cannot define your terms is a fundamental question. The "trans debate" presents challenges to feminism, which the GC position addresses and liberal feminism fails.

So as I go about my day, working in a male dominated industry, living in our patriarchy-shaped world, ranting about all the total bullshit that women have to put up constantly, I do not stop to obsess about trans issues. I don't agonise about other people's private anatomy. I care very deeply about the oppression of women and I simply don't care if someone was born a woman or decided to join us at a later date. But this seems disingenuous to me. You imply that to know the difference between a transwoman and a woman is "agonising about private anatomy" - but equally you suggest that you know the difference between men and women, since it's the former who are dominating your industry. So that's a red herring, no?

At some level feminism needs to know which people it is fighting for. I agree that there are huge unwon battles for us to take on, and where gender ideology hasn't penetrated far enough to make an impact, it might be wearing to discuss it ad nauseam (if that's what it looks like to you) - but I genuinely don't see how you can be a feminist without having a definition of women which doesn't recognise people's inability to identify in or out of their oppression.

For me this new Chat board will be positive if it means we can talk about the reality of sexism, which for almost all women does include our lives and common experiences as female people, and the oppressive nature of gendered social roles, without a chorus of “not all women have vaginas and not every person with a vagina is a woman”, because the “does a woman have a vagina or not” comments belong on the other board regardless of from which side of the debate you are making them.

It will be negative if it becomes a place where any mention of female bodies in relation to sexist constructions is unmentionable.

This, I am reserving judgement to see how it pans out. I have my ideas but trying to keep an open mind.

Does it invalidate the purpose of this board split, if users here declare that they include TW in the word women? Haven't we got back to The Debate again? Shouldn't those people be on the 'S&G Debate' board, since they're talking about this & arguing with other people?

I think you need to keep looking @dreamingbohemian

The reason that the 'TWAW' idea is such a hot topic is because it has the potential to exacerbate many of those huge challenges facing women that you care about.

Eg Male sex offenders in womens prisons, men competing in women's sport and professional awards, prizes, grants, board seats. There are no advantages for women in redefining what a woman is, and a great many for men.

I don't think any of the GC feminists on these boards want to be giving trans ideology a second's thought! It is the precise issues that you've highlighted that they care about too, namely safeguarding women and girls, protecting hard fought for rights and recognition, and levelling the playing field professionally and socially.

Oh bloody hell @Ereshkigalangcleg I didn't think of that and now have it stuck in my head too 😂

See I actually don't think that anyone actually decides who a woman is. It's not an opinion. It's- what's that word again? B-I-O-L-O-G-Y!

Thanks for the Girls Aloud earworm!

If you are not actively seeking to dismantle our white supremacy culture, in every forum of your life, in every space, then you are upholding it. Even if I lived in an entirely white space there are so so many things I could do that would help to build an anti-racist culture.

This, exactly.

If you have never heard of 'white feminism' or 'white women's tears', if you are not aware of how white feminists in the past have supported imperial and racist ideologies, or how women of colour are marginalised and ignored in today's feminist narratives and movements, then you need to start googling.

Pumper: not so easy. There are special restrictions on what can be said, which only apply to The Debate. Check out the other feminist board & you'll find them at the top, I think. They used to be at the top of this board list of contents.

I mean, who gave GC feminists the right to decide who a woman is? You are entitled to your opinion as are the rest of us.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But some views are more grounded in fact, than others.

* I won't be returning to debate you on any of this, so don't bother @ me. I'm familiar with your views and I'm not offended I'm just bored of hearing them.I for one am very grateful to MNHQ for creating a space for other feminist topics.*

The more feminist topics the better as far as I am concerned and nice to see a new poster on the board. I don't know who you were replying to but I would ask you to reconsider leaving the feminist boards as we need a broad range of opinion. We might disagree but that's what debate is all about.

I thought you were all welcoming new posters with smiley faces and things jelly ? Or do you not really expect any new posters at all?

The level of disingenuousness is staggering.

Personally I don't want my identity to be determined by my reproductive organs.

Oh and the absolute hilarious irony of this statement here. Yeah neither do we- hence wishing to be known as WOMEN and not menstruators or vagina havers.

Who doesn’t know what a woman is? Are you suggesting if I started a thread about smear tests people on mumsnet would be so confused by what I meant by ‘women’ they wouldn’t be able to respond?

Apparently woman is a gender term these days, so if we mean adult human female, then we need to say "adult human female" as "women" includes trans women.

My-arse-it-does

But to resurrect a point I made earlier, and to extend your metaphor, there's a danger that we end up with some form of Marxism that obsesses over definitions and the precise boundary between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, and loses sight of the struggle.

False equivalence. I am comfortable with fuzziness at the very edges of definitions. What I am not comfortable about is saying that a fine border of fuzziness at the edge means the entire classification is thrown away. It’s like saying because there’s different lines for high and low tide, some mountains are actually oceans. And I think switching the focus of Feminism from sex to self-defined gender is the latter.

For me this new Chat board will be positive if it means we can talk about the reality of sexism, which for almost all women does include our lives and common experiences as female people, and the oppressive nature of gendered social roles, without a chorus of “not all women have vaginas and not every person with a vagina is a woman”, because the “does a woman have a vagina or not” comments belong on the other board regardless of from which side of the debate you are making them.

It will be negative if it becomes a place where any mention of female bodies in relation to sexist constructions is unmentionable.

@dreamingbohemian agree 100%

You’re meant to focus on other stuff not ‘sex and gender debate’

Got anything that isn’t focusing on above?

I suppose it's just a coincidence then that virtually every thread on the other part is trans related

These are threads from the Feminism Chat that Mumsnet moved over to that board. They did the filtering and shuffling.

I would like to learn how I can be more than just not racist. How can I be anti racist and help black women get better pregnancy and birth care. I am white so this is difficult for me but I support female genital mutilation initiatives, I support giving reusable sanitary pads to girls in Africa but I would love to know what I could do everyday day to help black women. I know we can't expect black women to educate us but to be pointed in the right direction would be really helpful and discussion on here would be welcome. I would have read and probably joined in a thread about this if it had been posted.

I came to mumsnet feminism as a be kind live and let live woman. My feminism was weak from being a young adult in the 1990s and from being in an abusive relationship for 14 years . I am so ignorant and learn something new every day from this board. I hope that continues. IRS a shame I now have to flip between two boards to do that.

This board has given me the confidence to speak to my daughter's schools about Equality and sex education lessons. I did speak out at work about a few things but had an informal complaint made about me so I have now been silenced by an anonymous colleague without any discussion. I can't afford to loose my job which has fab hours as am I am a single parent to two autistic girls.

I've write lots of letters, signed petitions and given to charities fighting for women's rights. I just couldn't have done all that without these discussions that have opened my eyes wide and sent me down a rabbit hole I cannot unsee.

I want future where my dsughters are free and safe and that means protecting women's rights but for me that is only possible if we know what a woman and a girl is.

@jellybeansforbreakfast - actually, weight lifting is of interest to me as a feminist. I was a competition power lifter for a long time and still lift regularly (though I'm lazy and wouldn't win any major competitions now). I've never encountered a trans woman in any competition I've entered. I don't know any active in my area. But I have a lot of experiences I'd like to discuss through a feminist lens about weight lifting - like the level of stigma aimed at women with a lifter's physique, the fact that it's actively harmed me career wise to not fit the feminine ideal, the social pressure that leads to eating disorders amongst female athletes, male gaze and female exercise, and the massive pressure to perform femininity twice as hard when you're built like me, because I offend social sensibilities which mean women are meant to look dainty.

I'd genuinely like to discuss all of those things as I think they impact on more weight lifters than what is currently a single trans woman competing at an elite level which the overwhelming majority of athletes will never reach.

Which isn't to say that trans women in women's athletics isn't an issue. I kind of think it is and just feel like I'm not well enough informed to have an opinion. But I think there are many more issues which impact on more women and could do with discussion too and it would be really nice to be able to say "let's discuss the pressure on athletic women to drop serious sport in order to be acceptable as a "proper girl"" without that immediately being derailed.

A thread about raising girls would be interesting. How do you do that before they're old enough to confirm their gender?