So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

@jellybeansforbreakfast - so, sure. Have those discussions over at sex & gender. Those are what you think is the single most important issue facing female weightlifting. But I'd really like to discuss these other issues which I've faced and which I see young women struggling with now, and I think it's a positive that there is a space now where this can be discussed without the conversation derailing and ending up exclusively focusing on the one woman who isn't on the NZ Olympics team.

Ereshki, well said.

This thread is about feminism. Feminism centres women. Other social injustice happens. Fight it. But do not call it feminism unless it centres women.

We have the right to fight for ourselves, without shame, without apology, and without helping everyone around us first.

and just feel like I'm not well enough informed to have an opinion

In what sense? What do you feel you need to know?

Presumably includes transwomen?

I think MN has quite a few male readers, who can join in any of the threads. Obviously some threads are less relevant than others.

And once again, thus would never happen to another group.

And they could discuss that campaign in the new topic.
So Pumper you would post the thread , link to the campaign material and then tell us that we can't discuss it here?
How will that work?
If the removal of the word woman is relevant to the discussion about getting women tested for cervical cancers, why would it not be part of the discussion?

If the campaign

You were the perfect person to ask- because, gently and respectfully, you answers tend toward disowning responsibility.

And gently and respectfully, as long as you are not personally oppressing people of other races, it's ok for racial politics not to be your main focus. It's ok to think feminism is solely about women's rights and that modern theories such as queer theory and intersectionality aren't actually the last word on it.

I've said on many threads, the kind of people who boast about how "intersectional" are are often the kind of people who deny the importance, and sometimes the existence, of biological sex. If there are intersecting axes of oppression being born female is probably the largest oppressed group. The original concept was about being female and having that oppression compounded by other forms of oppression, eg black women falling through the cracks of affirmative action programmes benefiting white women and black men. It's been traduced. By holding males up as having an equal right to speak for and instead of females, even when what they say isn't in our best interest, it's lost its way.

Sex really matters in risk assessment. And in criminality.
It's not just a medical issue, though as a medical issue it's huge and impacts so many other areas.

I think that is the only way we can be free. Men and women stop being the only two ways people are primarily defined.*

I also think it's really sad the the suggestion for the only way we can be 'free' is to suggest that sex only matters when it comes to medical matters, rather than to continue to fight for equality for women, who let's face it are the group who aren't 'free'.

So on one hand...

People can decide if they will stay home after the birth of their baby, unrelated to having given birth themselves or not.

but

Male or female is only relevent medically.

I'm sick of maternity leave being painted as some jolly where a woman has a nice break from work, rather than the reality of recovering perhaps from a difficult birth that's resulted in ongoing medical conditions. You say it's only relevant medically but you're failing to acknowledge it in that exact example. A denial of why being female and female biology matters.

And it matters in so much more than just medically.

(For the audience of doubt I am including calculations of risk, violence, reproduction, general medical things, sport, etc - not only things that are directly down to physical difference but also statistically, demonstrably associated with sex and necessary for protection or safeguarding.)

@Imcatmum Exactly! Gender (I.e. societal expectations, labelling of personality, pink/blue boxes etc) is bollocks. There are a few specific circumstances where sex matters - and where it matters, it is definitely sex, not gender, that matters. So it is always unnecessary and oppressive to reinforce gender.

But presumably some non-GC feminists here will be able to argue the opposite case...

Male or female is only relevent medically. Like whether you have risk factors for X,y,z. It actually doesn't need to have any place in society.

It does due to male violence and safeguarding of women / females

Is this chat or debate who knows

@jellybeansforbreakfast

You were the perfect person to ask- because, gently and respectfully, you answers tend toward disowning responsibility.

There are so many great resources to explain why colour blind mentality upholds WS, and that is very connected to your point that history is esoteric.

May I recommend the Recent BBC podcast Human Resources? It digs into UK history and the impact of slavery on ALL parts of the uk and current culture brilliantly- I had so many lightbulb moments listening to that.

@Imcatmum if genders are only relevant for medical reasons there's a handy way to define those... chromosomes.

I'd genuinely like to discuss all of those things as I think they impact on more weight lifters than what is currently a single trans woman competing at an elite level which the overwhelming majority of athletes will never reach. @Potteringshed the usual response to that is "How many women is enough?" The woman who got pushed out of contention WOULD have reached that level if were not for Hubbard! And others who did not compete in other categores/levels also lost out. because they were told not to put their hat in the ring because Hubbard was entering. One man and how many New Zealand women? One man and how many women across the sport?

One man and a precedent set and cemented. How many others? How many more women losing out?

I am a sports scientist, I could bore the hind legs of anyone who wants to discuss physiology and biomechanics

Re a thread about smears, certain people would indeed consider it exclusionary for you to say that only women need smear tests. They would say trans men or non-binary females do too.

I would hope that even TRAs know that trans women do not need smear tests, but actually there are plenty of examples of trans women infiltrating things like menopause support groups, so there may be no limit to their >

I want to see gender as an identifier of people gone altogether. It serves no purpose other than to classify a group of people into something oppressable. I understand why trans people are fighting so hard to be classified as they feel correct but with gender relegated to simply a medical description, they could just be people like everyone else.

I think that is the only way we can be free. Men and women stop being the only two ways people are primarily defined. It becomes insignificant. There will be people who become pregnant, people who impregnate people. People can love and fancy anyone they want without it defining them or placing them as 'abnormal' Vs societal norm. People can decide if they will stay home after the birth of their baby, unrelated to having given birth themselves or not.

Male or female is only relevent medically. Like whether you have risk factors for X,y,z. It actually doesn't need to have any place in society.

Prisons and sports may need separate handling.

I'm still thinking it all through but why do we need male/female at all?

@ifIwerenotanandroid Where did I assume everyone was ignorant and white?

I said if you are not aware of these things then do some research.

Pumper: that looks like the one.

Also, whoever it was (@GreenWhiteViolet?) that said that "feminism" which centres the fight against racism is vital but not feminism is spot on. These things intersect. They are not the same. Women are allowed to focus on women.

You see my perspective as what, overly enthusiastic because I have tried to explain in detail. Or maybe it is disingenuous because I am not a welcoming committee.

And I have no idea whether you are arguing in good faith because you are a new poster, newly namechanged and have not expressed any opinion other than to chastise me and other GC posters.

TALK TO ME! Don't berate me like some well meaning aunty!

I'll try:

Why is the area you live so white? Rural, low socio-economic status, poor public transport and other amenities. But as I said, lots of other nationalities who come for seasonal work. As the neighbouring city gets more and more overcrowded more and more BAME families are moving out here but they are few and far between at the moment

What is the history of your area in regards to slavery/ colonialism? That's a no brainer, I am English. But I do question the current relevance of some of what is impuned by that question. But that's a whole different and quiet esoteric topic.

What is the history of your country? You mean before or after it was colonised by the French, Danes etc? Pre or post religious upheaval. Pre or post industrial revolution? Even a colonial country can hae a colonised past (hence that esoteric discussion I mentioned )

What are the places in your life you hold influence that you could build an anti-racist culture? My hearth, my home

What do you teach the people who learn from you about your history and our cultures history when it comes to race? In my youth I was colour blind. Brought up on Kumbaya and The Child is Black the Child is White in one fo the most, at that time, racially integrated cities in the UK. These days I am learning, because I am self aware enough to know that this is no longer deemed helpful and I respect the viewpoint of those directly affected by that.

Meanwhile, in real life, daily, I can reassure every BAME woman I meet that she can speak freely and that we will have appropriate support for her, whatever her need. I don't deal with BAME men on a daily basis (they tend not to access food banks, women in medical centres or DV refuges) but colleagues deal with them in much the same manner, in spaces they do make contact.

Oh! I lie, I run a cooking class for men, dads and kids, in that nearby city. We do have BAME men in that! We discuss the melange of UK culinary delights. That bastardisation of curry etc. Uncommon, common ground, so to speak.

What Do you have in your life that is good for you, that requires other people to suffer in order for you to have access? Nothing that is not essential to modern living in the UK. You are talking to an old fashioned woolly liberal that has always tithed her time for others. Brought up in poverty (real poverty, hungry, lacking proper clothing, heating etc). I don't buy fast food, fast fashion etc etc. I shop local, eat seasonally and locally.

I may not have been the best person to ask