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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

So Mumsnet ignored our request to have something to do with 'feminism' or 'women' in the name of the 'naughty step' subtopic

340 replies

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 16:16

So we now have

Feminist Chat (which was our space anyway)

Sex and gender debate

If they had to go ahead with this spineless nonsense plan, many of us on the preferred names thread suggested it was essential to include feminism in the naughty step topic. You cannot take the debate on sex/gender away from feminism.

I think my suggestion was:

Feminism: Women's Sex Based Rights

LibFem

So not only are they ignoring us and forging ahead with this crap, they've removed any relationship to feminism and women from the subtopic name.

Absolutely disgusted. This feels so reminiscent of the erasure of the word 'women' in so many contexts. To take the word feminist out of this subtopic- @MNHQ can you explain this? Because it's awful.

OP posts:
MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:08

@CheeryTreeBlossom

Well I signed up to Mumsnet premium to support the site when it was heavily implied they were losing advertising due to negative publicity around this board (as well as covid) and to avoid being beholden to those complaints. This move shows they are happy to acquiesce to those complaints so I've gone ahead and cancelled my subscription.
We've listened to other users (not random outsiders) about the FWR boards . We haven't censored, siloed or shut down the conversation. We've simply renamed a topic in a way that's effective for google and explains what it's about. It seemed a reasonable accommodation for Mumsnetters who have different views on the trans issue found FWR unwelcoming. Meantime we will continue to allow this conversation at substantial financial loss. Those are the facts.
Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 20:06

So we can't wonder how on earth it has become 'controversial' to state that it's impossible to change biological sex? To wonder what on earth is happening when JKR received such vile abuse for saying that women have periods?

OP posts:
Clymene · 21/06/2021 20:04

It's a bit ironic that the judgement on the Forstater case led to a) no updating of the Roolz and b) kettling into a little corner.

Women, know your place.

NiceGerbil · 21/06/2021 20:04

Oh yikes

Lovely neon signpost with welcome mat for monitors!

I have no idea how you can talk about feminism without touching on gender role (sex role).

I also don't know how the overlap is going to work. On many threads they go on for ages and then someone mentions eg stats being wonky. They are going to get loads of reports.

The other option is just for everyone to post everything on here.

MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:04

@Ninkanink

Feminism: Sex-based Rights and Protections for women and girls.

That’s what it should be called, as that would be entirely accurate.

It would be rubbish for search purposes though.
LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 20:01

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind considering you collectively agreed on this thread that it's good that Mumsnet even let you have this debate because it's banned on many other sites - and I know the majority are familiar with the huge controversies on social media regarding the GRA and TERFs and JK Rowling and allll that, I find it very difficult believe that you are suffering with your mental gymnastics there. Barely a mental touching of the toes is required to understand that this topic is controversial.

CheeryTreeBlossom · 21/06/2021 20:00

Well I signed up to Mumsnet premium to support the site when it was heavily implied they were losing advertising due to negative publicity around this board (as well as covid) and to avoid being beholden to those complaints.
This move shows they are happy to acquiesce to those complaints so I've gone ahead and cancelled my subscription.

Ninkanink · 21/06/2021 20:00

Feminism: Sex-based Rights and Protections for women and girls.

That’s what it should be called, as that would be entirely accurate.

Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 19:59

I'm glad you are in a position where you feel like you're doing the good lord's work by doing so though.

Maybe not 'the good lord'- I'm not religious.

I do believe in science though.

OP posts:
MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 19:58

Hi all. We considered Feminism - sex and gender but rejected it because Google doesn't like long titles for search purposes and second because it. However you'll notice the url of this topic is women's rights and that it is housed in the Feminism and women's rights category.

Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 19:57

Evasive? You stated it's a controversial topic and my brain cannot do the mental gymnastics involved to figure out how it is controversial- for the majority of us on this thread (although I'm guessing perhaps not you) to believe that women's sex based rights, sex and gender, are inherent to feminism, that biological sex is impossible to change.

OP posts:
LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 19:57

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

The disingenuous part that is so hilar to you was you saying to me, along the lines of "so sex and gender has nothing to do with feminism?"

It's a fucking board title. You are not aiding the cause by moaning about a board title lacking the word "feminist". I'm glad you are in a position where you feel like you're doing the good lord's work by doing so though.

Orangecircling · 21/06/2021 19:56

The note from MNHQ was quite clear. The board named Sex and Gender debate is for the major debate going on about the GRA, the single sex exceptions and the topics directly linked to that debate.

Extrapolating that this big subject area getting it's own topic in the feminism area and there is another board for other topics means anyone believes sex or gender is irrelevant to feminism is silly. As are all the insults about frilly pink feminism. The deliberate what "is a woman" posting is also silly.

LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 19:55

Oh and also "It wouldn't be controversial if..." statements don't negate the fact that it is objectively controversial.

Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 19:54

@LoverOfLight I'm actually 😂 at me being 'disingenuous' when you said 'I'm glad of the separation and why should feminism need to be in the title'- I took from that that you don't believe the debate on sex and gender is inherent to feminism- what else was i supposed to get from you suggesting that feminism shouldn't be in the title?

OP posts:
LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 19:52

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind Your response is evasive and hasn't addressed anything I've said to you.

Feminism is a niche topic in that it has it's own board, emotively talking about "our existence" to another feminist is just an attempt at obfuscating my pretty simple point.

CriticalCondition · 21/06/2021 19:52

Well, the remarkable speed of MN's response to that new Site Stuff post about hiding threads leaves me personally in no doubt about their disingenuousnous and lack of respect towards those who didn't ask for and don't want the split.

MarshaBradyo · 21/06/2021 19:52

Feminism: Women's Sex Based Rights

Yes please

No idea why they are so closed on this - loads of requests on other thread

OvaHere · 21/06/2021 19:51

It's only controversial because some people think that women existing in science and law is now controversial.

Women's rights and our existence is hardly a niche topic.

Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 19:51

Especially since you can hardly pretend it's not a controversial subject

Well I do wonder how as a society we've got to the point where stating that women have periods and it's impossible to change biological sex is 'controversial', but there we go. That women having access to safe spaces from biological males, not competing against biological males in sport, is controversial.

OP posts:
MoonCatcher · 21/06/2021 19:50

If we were at a stage where women didn't have the vote in the UK and the feminism boards were dominated by suffragist discussion would MNHQ hive that out of feminism? Because the gender critical debate is as significant to feminism now as suffragism was then.

LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 19:49

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

what you are saying there is that sex and gender issues are irrelevant to feminism, have I got that correct?

Your comments are so disingenuous. Do I need to explain to you that there is a difference between topics or issues that relate to sex and the sex and gender debate in and of itself? I don't believe for a second that you cannot make that distinction.

LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 19:48

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

Best have a separate MIL topic from AIBU then.

That's a bit disingenuous. My point was it's not uncommon for MN to create new boards for a a frequently discussed niche topic, not that is was necessary.

Yes there were threads on the old board about more than just trans stuff. Don't think anyone can pretend there was anything close to an even split of trans vs non trans threads in recent months though. Hence the perfectly reasonable creation of another space? Especially since you can hardly pretend it's not a controversial subject.

Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 19:46

So @LoverOfLight what you are saying there is that sex and gender issues are irrelevant to feminism, have I got that correct?

OP posts:
Orangecircling · 21/06/2021 19:45

@LoverOfLight

I don't agree. As a feminist without the trans debate at the forefront of her mind, it was disheartening to see a feminist board filled almost exclusively with trans/gender theory issues. Especially as it is such a popular and active site.

It's not "your" space in the sense you can pick and choose the subjects, and if a board that is supposed to represent a multitude of issues becomes the platform for one specific issue within that topic, it makes sense to have a clearer platform to discuss just that topic. They do it quite frequently.

Sex and gender debate sums up exactly what is constantly discussed so I don't see any issue in it.

Agree