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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

So Mumsnet ignored our request to have something to do with 'feminism' or 'women' in the name of the 'naughty step' subtopic

340 replies

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 16:16

So we now have

Feminist Chat (which was our space anyway)

Sex and gender debate

If they had to go ahead with this spineless nonsense plan, many of us on the preferred names thread suggested it was essential to include feminism in the naughty step topic. You cannot take the debate on sex/gender away from feminism.

I think my suggestion was:

Feminism: Women's Sex Based Rights

LibFem

So not only are they ignoring us and forging ahead with this crap, they've removed any relationship to feminism and women from the subtopic name.

Absolutely disgusted. This feels so reminiscent of the erasure of the word 'women' in so many contexts. To take the word feminist out of this subtopic- @MNHQ can you explain this? Because it's awful.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 20:32

@Ninkanink

How about ‘sex-based feminism’ (possibly with addition of ‘discussion’ if needed?)
Won't be allowed as it makes it blindingly obvious how ridiculous and pointless any other supposed kind of 'feminism' is 😂
OP posts:
CriticalCondition · 21/06/2021 20:32

@OvaHere

Where are these "majority of Mumsnet users" whenever there's a gender critical poll in AIBU that usually favours the gender critical POV upwards of 80/90% with 1000s of votes?

Odd that considering voting is anonymous.

This. So much this.
DialSquare · 21/06/2021 20:30

The vast majority on FWR maybe - although I stress again that we have not silenced or siloed anyone! - but not a majority of Mumsnet users, from what I see.

Did I miss a Poll on this?

Ninkanink · 21/06/2021 20:29

How about ‘sex-based feminism’ (possibly with addition of ‘discussion’ if needed?)

OvaHere · 21/06/2021 20:29

Where are these "majority of Mumsnet users" whenever there's a gender critical poll in AIBU that usually favours the gender critical POV upwards of 80/90% with 1000s of votes?

Odd that considering voting is anonymous.

MarshaBradyo · 21/06/2021 20:28

but not a majority of Mumsnet users, from what I see.

Is it more important to listen to users who don’t use the now separated section?

Many didn’t want it to start with, now we have it and still it’s the silent non users that count.

There are a huge amount of people wanting to suppress conversation - why capitulate?

MarshaBradyo · 21/06/2021 20:26

This feels like every other space that rolls over women’s language.

This is FWR one place left to say sex based rights are important. Probably on of the very few left on the internet - as we get ever squeezed and misogynists take over the spaces

Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 20:23

On the thread about preferred usernames, the point was made time and again that both topics should include 'feminism' or women' in the title- because if you take those away from the name of this subtopic as has been done, it's like saying that sex/gender is not inherent to feminism, and whether it's a subtopic of FWR or not, one board has 'feminism' within the title and it's been taken away from this one.

Language matters so much- yet women who believe in the reality of biological sex always seem to be bottom of the pile in having our chosen language respected. See also 'menstruators', 'pregnant people' etc.

OP posts:
CriticalCondition · 21/06/2021 20:23

Why is there a need for the word 'debate' in the title ? It's unnecessary and superfluous. Every board and topic on MN is a 'debate' where different views are expressed and explored. You might as well have 'Telly addicts debate' or 'Litter tray debate'.

MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:22

@GreenWhiteViolet

Yes I agree it's not longer and would have been a viable alternative but I'm not sure everyone would have been entirely happy with that given the conversation I've seen... and we thought it would be clearer to use the word debate.

Respectfully, a lot of posters are not at all happy with the new name. Nothing is going to make everyone 'entirely happy' but the current choice seems to go very much against the desires of the vast majority here. Why are the views of people who don't use the section taking precedence?

The vast majority on FWR maybe - although I stress again that we have not silenced or siloed anyone! - but not a majority of Mumsnet users, from what I see.
MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:21

@LoverOfLight

Why would Sex Based Rights be a good indicator of what the topic is about? It may sum up what the topic represents to you but, sex based rights are not exclusive to the sex and gender debate, and the sex and gender debate is not wholly encompassed by sex based rights. It makes no sense.
Agreed - you said it better than me to be honest.
MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:20

@MarshaBradyo

Yes I agree it's not longer and would have been a viable alternative

It gets my vote

I really dislike current version

The problem with this title I think is that it's effectively saying if you don't believe in sex-based rights then you're unwelcome in this topic. We didn't want to split feminism based on belief but rather on subject matter (as I've said all along) still believe strongly (and I know many will disagree) that we need to be inclusive and respectful - whilst absolutely having the right to disagree with others' opinions.
LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 20:19

Why would Sex Based Rights be a good indicator of what the topic is about? It may sum up what the topic represents to you but, sex based rights are not exclusive to the sex and gender debate, and the sex and gender debate is not wholly encompassed by sex based rights. It makes no sense.

GreenWhiteViolet · 21/06/2021 20:19

Yes I agree it's not longer and would have been a viable alternative but I'm not sure everyone would have been entirely happy with that given the conversation I've seen... and we thought it would be clearer to use the word debate.

Respectfully, a lot of posters are not at all happy with the new name. Nothing is going to make everyone 'entirely happy' but the current choice seems to go very much against the desires of the vast majority here. Why are the views of people who don't use the section taking precedence?

TheElementsSong · 21/06/2021 20:19

I would support Sex-based Rights.

I don't see why the word "debate" is needed to be said at all, since debate is pretty much the entire point of internet forums, nobody is going to be surprised that a chat forum consists of debate rather than, say, mayonnaise.

MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:17

@Clymene

It's a bit ironic that the judgement on the Forstater case led to a) no updating of the Roolz and b) kettling into a little corner.

Women, know your place.

No new rules because (unlike most places) we'd already taken the view that discussion of sex-based rights wasn't transphobic. The consolidation of the forum topics we'd been planning anyway - as we are consolidating across multiple categories to make the site easier to navigate and better for Search purposes. The renaming of topics, as said, was in response to user feedback - obviously not regular FWR users but there are many others.
Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 20:16

Agree with Marsha.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 21/06/2021 20:15

Yes I agree it's not longer and would have been a viable alternative

It gets my vote

I really dislike current version

Original poster
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 21/06/2021 20:15

It seemed a reasonable accommodation for Mumsnetters who have different views on the trans issue found FWR unwelcoming.

But how was it actually unwelcoming? Nobody has to read any threads that they don't want to, anyone could have posted on whatever topic around feminism that they liked. And the split really has shown just how many threads were started on other topics?

If FWR was unwelcoming, what on earth is AIBU? Do Mumsnet have plans to make AIBU more welcoming?

Appreciate the response though because it's definitely felt lacking, after the long threads around naming the subtopics for example.

OP posts:
MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:12

@OvaHere

Sex Based Rights wouldn't be any longer than Sex & Gender Debate would it?

It's not like something couldn't have been thought up that was both short enough and the women that use the board could be happy enough with.

Yes I agree it's not longer and would have been a viable alternative but I'm not sure everyone would have been entirely happy with that given the conversation I've seen... and we thought it would be clearer to use the word debate.
MarshaBradyo · 21/06/2021 20:12

Why not

Women’s rights

Or sex based rights

?

LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 20:12

Since there is a blue poster here maybe they can clarify that because, maybe I'm ignorant but, my understanding is that it's a very simple division of topics:

Normal feminism board = any issues that affect women and girls and feminism except for sex and gender debate.

Sex and gender debate - any posts specifically for debating the issues between current social understandings of the perceived differences (or not, if you fall on that side of it) between sex and gender identity. Therefore any threads relating to "trans issues" in terms of transgender identity and anything to do with the GRA would go there. Under the feminism topic.

#Silenced, right?

LoverOfLight · 21/06/2021 20:11

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind - you can? On the sex and gender debate board?

MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 21/06/2021 20:09

@Clymene

It's a bit ironic that the judgement on the Forstater case led to a) no updating of the Roolz and b) kettling into a little corner.

Women, know your place.

What corner though? It's one of two topics in the Feminism and Women's Rights section - and the one with by far the most threads, which will attract by far the most search traffic.
OvaHere · 21/06/2021 20:09

Sex Based Rights wouldn't be any longer than Sex & Gender Debate would it?

It's not like something couldn't have been thought up that was both short enough and the women that use the board could be happy enough with.

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