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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian - What Life Lessons can we learn from femininity coaching?

43 replies

merrymouse · 21/06/2021 11:56

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/20/the-eva-wiseman-column-what-life-lessons-can-we-learn-from-femininity-coaching

Struggling to make sense of this article.

the feminists I know empathise deeply with trans women, partly because of that same itchy fear – we know what it is to want to move freely through the world without being harassed, policed or insulted, but we also know predators feel no need to put on a disguise.

Harassment is not an indicator of sex. Plenty of men are harassed. I'm happy to show them empathy, but that has no bearing on their sex.

The remark about predators seems to assume that women who want access to single sex spaces in situations where they feel vulnerable are worried about men who wear dresses, not just plain old men, however they identify.

I remind myself there are a thousand different ways to be a woman. And fine, if one of those ways means a woman thinks she’ll be more loved if she cleans the oven and refrains from swearing, then girl, fucking go for it.

But there is only one way to be a woman who is advised not to drink alcohol by the WHO, or targeted for rape in Tigray (both reported in June, but apparently there is no special month when women can claim to be more delicate). Meanwhile surely men can clean ovens????

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RadandMad · 22/06/2021 00:08

I need femininity coaching like I need a bad dose of herpes.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/06/2021 17:46

@GoingGently

Glad you got something from the article...I found it utterly incoherent!
Yes. Absolute pile of shite.
AgnesWaterhouse1566 · 21/06/2021 17:28

I'm a lifelong guardian reader but the menopause article was the first one which prompted an out loud 'what the actual fuck?'

RoyalCorgi · 21/06/2021 16:57

The funny thing is that Wiseman has written quite interestingly and coherently about her own difficult experience of giving birth and the effect it had on her. But she is also full on TWAW. None of it makes sense.

Packingsoapandwater · 21/06/2021 16:54

Ffs... "traditional femininity".

Traditional for who? This "femininity" she refers to is a postwar product of the 1950s that only applied to, largely American, females in a certain social class in the first place.

What is it with these younger feminists who seem to have read no feminist historical literature whatsoever? They are as bad as bloody Peter Hitchens with their mythic notions of the world of yesterday.

Baking, for example. Who exactly baked for whom prior to 1939? If you were wealthy, your cook baked for you or you bought confectionery in. Sane goes if you were middle class. Lower middle class you might throw something together, but huge numbers of working class women didn't have ovens at home. They just had stoves. Jeez, in the Victorian period, most folk took their pies to be baked at the bakers.

This femininity stuff is just nonsense. It's just a fetishising of a 1950s American suburban ideal that drove most women who lived it completely insane.

GoingGently · 21/06/2021 15:17

My current (pretty stupid) user name was a reminder to self not to get TOO CROSS at all the headfuckery going on in the world that gets highlighted on these FWR threads (which I love). It's failing... I need a new one, the expletives are leaking out! Grin

Summerhillsquare · 21/06/2021 14:37

I do love the dear ol Grauniad, but this is the biggest pile of horseshit they have every printed. Sub editors day off? Self commissioned topic? Writer forgotten how to write? Jesus.

RoyalAcademyOfFarts · 21/06/2021 13:37

Nonsense article.

MrsWooster · 21/06/2021 13:34

It put a definite crimp in my Sunday morning. How she isn’t ashamed of herself, I’ll never know.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/06/2021 13:31

@Nellodee

The message I got was that oppressive gender ideals are fine if they help make trans women feel better about themselves. Did I get that right?
I'm amazed that the Guardian are stating so openly what feminists have been questioning all along - why are regressive stereotypes so enthusiastically embraced by this ideology? But good to see it laid out so clearly so thanks to Eva for that.
334bu · 21/06/2021 13:29

GoingGently. 👏👏

terryleather · 21/06/2021 13:28

@GoingGently

Fuck this shit
My thoughts exactly Grin
Beamur · 21/06/2021 13:27

I have no idea what point she's trying to make.

drspouse · 21/06/2021 13:22

@GoingGently

Fuck this shit
I think this is an excellent life lesson.
newrubylane · 21/06/2021 13:19

I don't even know where to start on this incoherent steaming pile of nonsense.

In case anyone was interested, I found the Refinery29 article about femininity coaching she mentions, which - although I agree with its conclusion, that femininity coaching is stupid - is also only slightly more coherent and slightly less full of nonsense.
www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2021/06/10503519/what-is-a-love-coach

Helleofabore · 21/06/2021 13:16

Obviously The Guardian are trolling women now.

They seem to want women to go back to the 1950s ! And anyone disagreeing will be sent to be re-educated.

Helleofabore · 21/06/2021 13:13

many of the typical markers of femininity

What are these many 'markers'?

midgemagneto · 21/06/2021 13:11

Ah

The guardian are trying to cheer us up with slightly off tone humour ?

Frogsonglue · 21/06/2021 13:11

Jesus what a load of tedious drivel.

eurochick · 21/06/2021 13:11

@FFSFFSFFS

One of the things I was surprised to discover was how hormone therapy could have potentially gender affirming properties for someone like me, who is a cisgender femme woman facing down the loss of many of the typical markers of femininity

Sorry - am I reading this right. She was surprised that female hormones could have an impact on females?

That is the most baffling part of the whole shitty piece for me. How can any woman reach menopause age without being aware of the huge role hormones play?
Helleofabore · 21/06/2021 13:10

midgemagneto

I cannot claim the medal. I abandoned ship when I read all about the 'femme' shaming and how important it was that a 'nb' person discuss perimenopause and gender.

Particularly in mid life, when some women want to remain femme and feminine, it gets really teasy and shamey and gross. Instead of acknowledging in an empathetic way, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry that you’re having this painful gender crisis, what can we do to help affirm your gender identity? it becomes oh let go of that, you’ve aged out of that, or whatever.

What the fuck?

PaleGreenGhost · 21/06/2021 13:08

Why does Eva Wiseman even want to call herself a feminist? It doesn't make any sense.

FFSFFSFFS · 21/06/2021 13:05

One of the things I was surprised to discover was how hormone therapy could have potentially gender affirming properties for someone like me, who is a cisgender femme woman facing down the loss of many of the typical markers of femininity

Sorry - am I reading this right. She was surprised that female hormones could have an impact on females?

SimonedeBeauvoirscat · 21/06/2021 13:04

I’ve always thought Eva Wiseman was a total lightweight and this is just the latest evidence thereof.

Orangecircling · 21/06/2021 13:03

The three activities Eva mentions as feminine: grooming, baking and cleaning, are as much male activities as female. Stick the telly on and you will see programmes with men doing all those things.

She's a bit outdated.