Self-ID and racism question

Can I ask for transracial , is this primarily people from dominant group identity as less powerful group?

I’m going to return to the original question, if that’s OK.

I haven’t seen any clear argument as to why being transgender is notably different to being transracial. (Of course they’re not entirely the same, because these sort of comparisons never entirely hold up.) I suspect there's a large overlap between the group of people who firmly believe TWAW/TMAM and the group of people who were pretty cathing in their denunciation of Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug, and I don't find those positions consistent. Jessica Krug wrote a grovelling apology here that I found quite painful to read. By her own admission, she had been battling with mental health issues.

While I don't agree that male people can be women, or female people can be men, I at least feel that transgender people are worthy of compassion, particularly if they suffer from gender dysphoria (and are not demanding that others participate in their belief). But it felt to me that there was a distinct lack of compassion and #bekind for Jessica Krug,and perhaps also Rachel Dolezal.

I've seen an argument that transgenderism is not the same as transracialism, because racial inequality is built up over generations. While that's true, I don't see what difference that makes here, and presumably would mean that it's equally acceptable to be transabled.

Then there's this Guardian opinion piece that argues that trans women don't identifiy as women - they are women, whereas Rachel Dolezal only identifies as black; transracialism is a choice, whereas transgenderism isn't. But I think the writer is only saying that because they don't accept that it's possible to be transracial - so it's a circular argument.

posters take the bait and participate in derailing

Guilty!

Ooh so many squirrels on this thread, fancy that

Back to the subject at hand, why is it that when a real question is being asked, and the answers are pretty obvious the response is to discuss anything but the subject at hand?

Or is that a stupid question?

An oppresive class identifying into the class they have traditionally oppressed perpetuates that oppression, an oppressed class identifying out of their oppressed clas does nothing to change the oppression of that class. Its lose / lose for the oppressed class.

Ok.

Any comment on the premise of what OP posted?

[quote AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]@Imasoulman

The comparison between cultural appropriation and specifically trans women is valid because females are the oppressed group of people. Females have fought hard to win their rights, have access to scholarships etc. similar to the current battle BAME people are fighting to access the same rights and privileges.
Females are the oppressed group which males (trans women) are identifying as.
BAME are the oppressed group and who people such as RD are identifying as.

Op is comparing like for like.
The oppressors identifying as the oppressed.[/quote]
Yes ok I can accept what you are saying.

However I still feel the post was trying to vilify trans women

There are huge numbers of trans men, you can read posts on here on a daily basis about young women coming out as trans.
Its virtually a bloody epidemic.

Interesting choice of words, a certain poster here is mates with Global Butterflies, mentioned in this thread.

St Pauls School ditches the title "Head Girl" - The Times 19/06/21 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4274714-St-Pauls-School-ditches-the-title-Head-Girl-The-Times-19-06-21

So.... no answers to the OP's question then? Even after people have explained why the significance of the focus on males vs females?

Just distraction and derailment?

plus ca change

The original question is about the double standards of it not being acceptable to self identify as a black person, when you've been born white, verses being able to self identify as a female when youve been born a male.

Transwomen examples were used purely because men have many advantages in the broadly white western patricarchal society we are in (as well as across pretty much all societies.) And in "western" societies, white people have, through historic and institutional racism, also had many advantages, purely through their birth biology.

It's very simplistic as we know there are many nuances and other complexities; but effectively comes down to the fact you can't identify as something you biologically aren't.

And yes, it's double standards.

The word isn't used here Robin. You should know that by now...

But I thought after the EAT judgment in Forstater the GC position is that ‘offence’ is fine and expression of belief, including a belief in gender identity, was protected?

Or have I misunderstood?

How's that book going Robin? Out of date so soon after publication? Planning to update it to reflect that gender critical beliefs are protected legally? 😉

soulman I am sorry that you have experienced such violence in your life.

I think you are describing things that many of us have experienced or our friends or families have experienced. But from my personal perspective, the violence was because me, my mother, my sister were females. My family members were raped because they were females.

I could go on but it is not a morbid and pointless competition.

But the point is that we, as women, fully understand the voilence that males perpetrate. And we understand that some of this is directed at others who they perceive as different.

It does not however mean that female's don't need their very own protections that are separate to trans people's though.

This thread risks being derailed by whatabouttery. It' happens all of the time.

There is plenty of evidence available online, I prefer not to seek it out.

Well what a surprise that is 😲

I guess what I am saying is it isn't transgender that caused the harm but ge der

Maybe you could research how many transwomen and men have lost their jobs, their friends and families. How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

Do post your research. I'm sure we'd all be very interested to see it. In the UK transwomen are one of the safest groups of all. More transwomen kill others than are killed. In line with male pattern violence.

Transmen however are women. Women are regularly harassed, assaulted, murdered, by men. Does your research show that transmen are being treated just like other women because they are transmen? Or because they are women?

See is that transphobia in action or plain old gender discrimination because you didn't fit his restrictive notions of gender

Women typically want to solve this problem as much as you

Women get beaten and harmed if they don't comply to the restrictions...you will be the submissive wife
And they get beaten and harmed when they do...bloody tart was asking for it

The difficulty for research into how many women lost their jobs/promotions due to being women and having the ability to be pregnant or just being considered 'not as good as men' as per the study done by the Veterinarian group are usually on the light side of statistical reliability.

Because most women know that it has happened but feel powerless to do anything about it, so they won't. They will simply try to get another role and move on.

So, I think a comparison of the two groups is worthless.

Absolutely worthless because how many women would even be arsed to self - report the amount of discrimination they have dealt with in a survey or a study.

There is plenty of evidence available online, I prefer not to seek it out.

Maybe you could research how many transwomen and men have lost their jobs, their friends and families. How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

This would be a complete derail, the thread is about why it's appropriation and offensive for anyone to claim to be trans racial but the same arguement doesn't apply to transgender.