Self-ID and racism question

It’s more complex than “everyone else except yourself” for mixed race people. Rarely is there a consensus of “everyone” seeing you as one of the races you are. There is always conflict.

Well, mixed race people can ID as any, all or none of their ethnic heritage. I think most people who get into trouble for not being black, or Asian or white “enough” are actually mixed race

Other people will ID them as they see them. You can say you identify as white, but if you are obviously mixed race you are black to everyone but yourself.

Well, mixed race people can ID as any, all or none of their ethnic heritage. I think most people who get into trouble for not being black, or Asian or white “enough” are actually mixed race.

In addition, there are trans-race people. These are people of one race adopted and raised by people of another race, that then go on as adults to claim their ethnic heritage. It sounds easy, but it’s actually very hard. Because most often you’re raised in an entirely different culture. Think Chinese orphan raised by US white parents in Ohio. You grow up with different language, different concepts of family, of traditions, of religion.

Now as for the people clearly of race X, not mixed race and not raised by another race, but decide to claim they are race Y....its not the same as being a man wanting to live as a woman. Biologically, you cannot change your sex as you cannot change your race. But socially, you can change your gender to live as a woman.

I see nothing wrong with that and the more the line is blurred between man-woman gender construct, the more we get rid of gender itself, I see that as ultimately freeing and leading to equality between the sexes. I don’t care as much about who gets to claim actual victimhood for oppression of women. It’s about the future not the past.

It’s kind of a sad truth, but take for example historic women’s work....usually unpaid, when paid mostly women workers and of course underpaid. But when men start doing that work or those jobs, it suddenly gets better paid and more equal to jobs historically done by men to begin with. Take childbirth- once the exclusive preserve of women, now we have highly paid OB/GYNs...both men and women doctors. As opposed to an older woman of the village who popped by and assisted with childbirth in exchange for a chicken or whatever.

I think the same is happening here with men choosing to live as women and some women choosing to live as men. At the very least if they go through the surgery and then pass in society as opposite gender, they are getting a taste of what it is like to live without (or with) male privilege. In fact, it’s a shock to most transwomen and in my opinion, 99% of their discrimination claims are due to discrimination the experience not because they are trans, but because they’re being treated as if they were a born woman. And if you’ve lived as a boy/man and then start passing as a girl/woman, it can be a shock to lose that male privilege in society.

We are not talking about men or women being discriminated about so stop trying to shift the point

YOU are not talking about this. WE are, YOU haven't understood that that is the actual point here.

I guess one of the broader points here is that when someone from group A is in some way presenting as group B there are a whole load of different things that could be going on e.g.

• actor playing a part of B character (when is this acceptable or not acceptable?)
• genuine respectful immersion in B culture
• cultural appropriation
• pretending to be B for enjoyment
• decieving others for material gain
• living as B because its psychologically more comfortable
• identifying as B
• asserting they actually are B, perhaps shifting the definition of B

And the point is that how the person themselves represents what they are doing may not be how others represent it. e.g. Rachel Dolezal might say she is black , but others might say she is trying to deceive people.

I think there is an inconsistency with the way some people view transgenderism and transracialism.

Interestingly, I came across this letter to the Guardian that states that under race relations legislation she could legally be considered Black in the UK.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/14/rachel-dolezal-could-be-black-in-britain?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

'the law lord added: "Provided a person who joins the group feels himself to be a member of it, and is accepted by other members that he is, then he is, for the purposes of the Act, a member.”... Allowing discrimination by means of skin colour is a disastrous mistake for any country that wants to live at peace with itself to permit.'

Of course, that relies on other Black people accepting her as one of them. Which begs some questions: Which Black people? How many must acknowledge it? What if other Black people disagree? And surely if you take that to its logical conclusion, a group of white people could all get together, acknowledge each other as Black, and thus they'd be covered?

No, I don't think it would be viewed in the same light today.

Comedy is a really difficult area because when you parody something, you can't control how the audience will react. Alf Garnet was a comedy character who was a massive racist bigot, and you were supposed to laugh at him. But a lot of the audience were actually laughing along with him when he said horrible racist things.

Also to shout:

“Of COURSE that’s different you RACIST! That is cultural appropriation of an oppressed group. It’s not my job to explain it to you. Go and EDUCATE yourself”

#nodebate (cos I go no leg to stand on)

Yup me to TRA family member (not my DC!): "So how is it different from Rachel Dolezal claiming to be black, because that's similar to sex in that it's a physical characteristic on which oppression is based"

Family member: NO it's NOT the same! Race is NOT gender!

Me: I didn't say race was gender, I compared race to sex, not gender. But anyway can you explain why it's not the same?

Yes I thought Ali G was a parody of cultural appropriation before cultural appropriation was a thing, rather than a prosody of ethnic minorities

But do you think it would be viewed in the same light now? I feel like in the current environment that nuanced critique would be steamrolled over. Maybe not, I guess Borat was released pretty recently and didn’t come in for much flack.

What do people think about Ali G? That was seen as mainstream and acceptable comedy not that long ago. Is it now hateful cultural appropriation? I guess on both a racial and class level?

Ali G is complicated because I think part of the aim of the character was to mock white people appropriating black culture. (And also to enjoy the discomfort of his white middle class "victims" squirm with uncertainty when he says "Is it because I is black?")

@Cowbells
My mother has recently agreed that "no debate" is wrong. I think if she delved a bit deeper she may see my point of view more clearly, she's empathetic and highly intelligent.

The males in my family are far too emotional to talk to about it.

Whilst I would love to see that, I would fear for your personal safety tbh.

Quite! That's why I've always been too cowardly to try it.

I think its obvious why there is a focus on transwomen. It's the self identifying as an oppressed group member which is the problem. There would be no such outcry if a black person self identified as white though that would not stop them being discriminated against. When you identify as an oppressed group member you both minimise and hide their struggle.

Hi there OP. I am having a good think about this, a weird dichotomy.

Does anyone know if Bunbury has given out invites for tea? Just a reminder in case

What do people think about Ali G? That was seen as mainstream and acceptable comedy not that long ago. Is it now hateful cultural appropriation? I guess on both a racial and class level?

Imasoulman

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
@Imasoulman

The comparison between cultural appropriation and specifically trans women is valid because females are the oppressed group of people. Females have fought hard to win their rights, have access to scholarships etc. similar to the current battle BAME people are fighting to access the same rights and privileges.
Females are the oppressed group which males (trans women) are identifying as.
BAME are the oppressed group and who people such as RD are identifying as.

Op is comparing like for like.
The oppressors identifying as the oppressed.
Yes ok I can accept what you are saying.

However I still feel the post was trying to vilify trans women

It’s not about vilifying any males. It’s about drawing a comparison between why one oppressed group are supposed to be welcoming of their oppressors identifying as them to their own detriment, whereas the other group can express their upset and be supported in taking measures to ensure it doesn’t happen.
If you believe that this vilifies trans women, then surely by extension, you should believe that calling out people such as RD vilifies white people.

I have often pondered the idea of a transblack twitter account, a white person identifying as black and relying on stereotypical depictions of being black to do so.

I suppose the difference might be that there have always been transgender people across many different cultures. However, as far as I am aware none of these groups actually thought they had changed sex in the biological sense but only in the social sense and often to make homosexual relationships acceptable within these communities. The TWAW TMAM mantra is a very modern concept and in this case is similar to people identifying as being of another race.

It's interesting to me because not many people would make the point that race is real in any meaningful way other than how you are treated by society. People can be any shade on a rather large spectrum. And yet we instinctively understand that appropriating someone's race in a society that does treat people differently on the colour of their skin is wrong.

But something like an actual vagina we can pretend is a social fucking construct.

midgemagneto From the examples I've seen, yes. One of the responses is along the lines of the fact that black people aren't able to simply "identify out of being black" i.e. out of oppression. And that racial inequality is something that black people experience on a level that a white person identifying as black could never appreciate. The same arguments are made about women and trans women.

In the cases quoted both are white women claiming to be black.

There was also a community in America that identified as ? Black American even though they appear white , the justification being that their community is treated as a black community because their ancestors were black
Their community suffers systematic discrimination, less investment, less chance of jobs etc as historically it was black