Wild Wanders (hiking group) Women only (but transwomen allowed)

In fact, by allowing some males in but not others, they might be on dodgier territory.

I'm not so sure about that - anyone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Private clubs and associations generally have more freedom on how they select members. I believe they have a broader "exemption" on discrimination rules.

This is not like a service, who would normally be subject to discrimination rules, but then have a narrower exemption for single-sex - that's the exemption we're normally discussing that Stonewall want to eliminate. But I don't think private clubs are relying on that.

If there is a legitimate purpose per the equality act then transwomen can be excluded...but not based on fearmongering....needs to be real threats, not made up ones.

The Act allows private clubs and other associations (except political parties) to restrict membership to people who share protected characteristics.

A women's walking club is absolutely allowed.

In fact, by allowing some males in but not others, they might be on dodgier territory.

On the other hand if a trans woman genuinely wants to make friends then I would feel bad about excluding her, especially if her transition is making her lonely.

But what's stopping a transwoman from joining a mixed-sex group? Why do they have to undo the female one?

Why not apply the same logic about any male?

"On the other hand if a man genuinely wants to make friends then I would feel bad about excluding him, especially if (whatever) is making him lonely."

Same nonsense as the Hampstead Heath ponds - there are male, female and mixed-sex, but transwomen insist on entry to the female. As a male, to insist on entry to the female-only space is at best just incredibly self-centred. At worst, well...

Wow! That’s so awful about the lone camping group. I think it’s this kind of thing that people just don’t see as being the low level restrictions on freedom that women face.

Another thing men don’t notice is how different the vibe is in a women-only group and this is because when women are in a mixed group (of even just one man and many women) they usually adapt to the preferred subject matter of the male mainstream as well as change the way they speak. And they apologise for “girly” subject matter. This is widely documented.

So I would imagine that the dynamic of a women-only group with a transwoman would depend entirely on how they perceived that transwoman, as a man or a woman, and therefore how comfortable they felt sharing confidences and speaking freely.

Same thing for men-only groups where one woman enters and they tone down their speech (annoyingly so but there it is).

It would be interesting to see sociolinguistic studies on this.

On the other hand if a trans woman genuinely wants to make friends then I would feel bad about excluding her, especially if her transition is making her lonely.

I don’t know that the answer is. I feel like the viewpoints are irreconcilable.

Whoops. You've accidentally included the original screenshot alongside the one you've edited to obscure the poster's name. You need to report your post to admin to remove that pic.

Sorry, not ranting at you purple

Even if the guy merely walks up the mountain and approaches your tent to nicely offer you a jaffa cake and ask if you might like a bit of sex? No? No thanks? Well I'll just pitch over here by you then.

You've still got a woman whose privacy has been invaded, who is now on full alert of what the guy may or may not decide to do because it's in his gift as to whether she has to fight off an assault tonight, is at best extremely pissed off and is quite likely to pack up and get the fuck out of the place.

The issue is male entitlement to female bodies. To use as they want. Consent optional and to be taken as a soft limit at best. Bodies to be used for company, for support, as a prop in a fantasy, as a sex doll - we're not grading this on what kinds of use is ok and what's definitely over the line. It's not ok full stop.

"I belong to a wild lone camping group. Women in the group have had to, under group rules, stop giving any details in the group as to where and when they go, or sharing photographs because of multiple incidents of men stalking the group to find out where a woman would be alone, and following or assaulting her, that escalated to the point of the group leaders making it a rule. Those men saw a lone woman in a quiet place as a really great rape target and were prepared to work hard to achieve it, including following women miles up mountains."

Bloody hell!

Yes. The questions are posed to stir shit.

They are also posed to reveal weak organisations where the safety of women can be over ridden.

Rape, assault and murder the outcomes. This is not hyperbole. This, as we all know, is reality.

I belong to a wild lone camping group. Women in the group have had to, under group rules, stop giving any details in the group as to where and when they go, or sharing photographs because of multiple incidents of men stalking the group to find out where a woman would be alone, and following or assaulting her, that escalated to the point of the group leaders making it a rule. Those men saw a lone woman in a quiet place as a really great rape target and were prepared to work hard to achieve it, including following women miles up mountains.

In this case in the OP, men would not have to do a single damn thing but say 'I identify as', to join this group and have access to all the information and get to go along. Living with female biology is different and I understand if you can't get that. But expecting female people to pretend otherwise to avoid an uncomfortable bit of reality doesn't help anyone. Plus female people should have the right to be only with female people if they choose to, regardless of how not female people feel about that.

I'd be really surprised if the invited transwoman a) existed at all and b) really comes along for a walk.
It's a test.

And the assumption is, when asked if the group is trans inclusive is transwomen, not transmen.
To be honest, if the group is happy to include TW that's up to them. But it will probably mean some women are less likely to come.
Women really aren't allowed to have anything for themselves are they.

Women’s Hiking group
Women’s institute meeting
Women only shortlist
Women’s spokeswoman
Women’s competitive contact sport
Changing room with 13 years old girls
Lesbian group

My worry is my support at one level is read as support at all levels and is that making it harder for elite Athletes and lesbians and prisoners to push back?

No, it doesn't, Mishy.

Women who want to do stuff in all female groups do NOT have to justify that by demonstrating that 'guys' are a threat, frocks or not.

We're allowed to do stuff as a group of women, & say no to male people.

You seem to think that women can't choose to exclude males?

We don't HAVE to do the bit where we tediously explain that yup, some unpleasant males are quite keen on things like wilderness hiking with women despite being unwelcome, frocks or not.

We can just turn them away & carry on hiking without them.

I'd say at least 90% of the time this is only asked to stir shit. I'd also love to ask if women were welcome to a TW event/ group, or could be nominated in a TW event- cause ya know, we are all just girls in baby pink and heels together........

Tanith

Good to hear it.

Because, let's face it; The oft typed/screeched "Wimmin Kick Wimmin Out Of Toilets Koz They Look Like the Menz" trope is old. And as, any woman really knows, fully debunked. Wholly untrue.

Trans-inclusive, in women/female only groups, means inclusive of transmen*

We're here for it.

*Fellow females.

The bottom line is, some women want to hike in groups or in fact do anything in a group and they don't want male people there.

There are already mixed sex groups that exist for leisure activities, social activities. As soon as a transwoman joins a women's group they become the male in the group and so the group has lost it's purpose completely.

Mishy, you must have missed the (long) memo that you can be in trousers and a vest, with a beard and a receding hairline, and still be a woman.

That's just a fact, not fear mongering.

I don’t see a women’s hiking group about being ‘safe’ but about being a social choice, empowerment maybe.

Wouldn’t bother me if there was a representative ratio of Transwomen in the group. I am gender critical but have had good friends and colleagues who were Trans and don’t think that they would upset a womanish vibe on a hike.

I would be happy for Transmen to be there too.

Lols. Makes me laugh. No guy is going to throw on a frock to join a group of women on a walk in the wilderness. Fearmongering rating 10.

If there is a legitimate purpose per the equality act then transwomen can be excluded...but not based on fearmongering....needs to be real threats, not made up ones.

Did you mean to upload three pictures? In one the names/photos of the posters are clearly visible whereas in the other, you've edited out their details for privacy. MN might be able to edit that for you, if so.

For social stuff it doesn't bother me if some woman-only groups want to be trans inclusive as long as groups that want to be female-only are respected as well.

My personal line is anything where women have a lot of choice and are not driven to by need is fine to be single gender mixed sex.

Anything that women don't really have a choice about (prison, changing facilities, refuges, medical services), is used to drive policy (eg statistics, consultations, women's groups, political officerships and suchlike) or is intended to target specific impacts of sexism (eg shortlists, training opportunities, back to work initiatives) should remain single sex.

Which would put them in the category of "males I definitely wouldn't want to go remote-hiking with", which would have been the exact reason why I'd joined a female-only hiking group, so that makes weren't there.