Wild Wanders (hiking group) Women only (but transwomen allowed)

Thanks for reminding me to switch my women only social group from 'public' to 'hidden' on FB. I'd been meaning to do it for a while but this has prompted me to get on with it. If I wanted to run a mixed sex group I'd set up a mixed sex group.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of outrage about not respecting/staying out of other people's lanes, respecting their spaces and unique lived experiences. And rightly so. They probably won't see the irony and get even crosser if you point out that female people have lanes and unique lived experiences too.

It comes down as said earlier to this assumed entitlement to females as service humans that means this respect isn't seen as a mutual thing. Females aren't entitled to not provide.

Why would you exclude bi-sexual women if you are going to accept males?

Make it make sense.

(No problem with them excluding bi-sexual women normally)

London's Hiking Dykes used to specifically say 'no bisexual women or trans women'. I've noticed they've amended it to:

'all women who define themselves as lesbian are welcome to walk with us'

Wonder if they came under pressure.

No guy is going to throw on a frock to join a group of women on a walk in the wilderness.

I think some males would do exactly this (though not necessarily an actual frock) - as a way of being predatory is one reason, but also because for some TW, pushing into a female-only space brings validation or in some cases it's a turn-on.

It would spoil it for me. It's not just about fear, though my fear level would be higher with a male there. It's also that if I want to be with just women, it's about the shared experience and outlook of being a woman and does mean you can speak freely about physical female matters, and about males. If there is a TW there you will be on your guard for anything that could be taken as offensive or exclusionary, and thus it becomes about them, not upsetting them, etc.

I have similar near me and was going to book something until I saw that it's basically open to any male who wants to muscle in. That's a no then because I was looking for a female-only group.

Not the Twitter thread you were looking for, I think; but that came up straight away.

melmagazine.com/en-us/story/elleohhell-wife-twitter-scam

Men pretending to be women online (deserves a thread of its own on here)

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2018/03/online-violence-against-women-chapter-3/

Oh. Amnesty put this out. Hmmmm.

mobile.twitter.com/bunifoosh/status/1234230539760144389

A quick google.

MishyJDI
Lols. Makes me laugh. No guy is going to throw on a frock to join a group of women on a walk in the wilderness. Fearmongering rating 10

If there is a legitimate purpose per the equality act then transwomen can be excluded...but not based on fearmongering....needs to be real threats, not made up ones

Oh such lols isn’t it?! No man would ever pretend to be something he’s not in order to assault a woman, would he?

Anyone got a link to the Twitter thread with hundreds of examples of men pretending to be doctors, priests, gay, vulnerable, police etc in order to assault women?

You've posted really good, informative stuff.

No worries Red.

I think if you start blurring the lines for 'passing' that just makes it even less fair and transparent. Trans people shouldn't be made to feel that they need to pass. It's either all or none.

NecessaryScene, yes that seems right. It’s about causing the least harm possible.

Well then, no. Because there is value in having same sex spaces as long as everyone has equal opportunities and resources. And men have lots.

Right. I think the only place there's a serious conflict here is when there are two spaces/events - male and female.

In that case you might have a male who is not comfortable being in a space with other males (because they think other males will have a problem with them appearing female), and females who are not comfortable being in a space with males. Both can not be made happy in that scenario. But overall, saying the male has to use the male space harms fewer people.

If there is already mixed-sex provision, this is a no-brainer. The transwoman can use the mixed-sex space. No-one will think they're out of place, whether or not they perceive the transwoman as male or female.

If the transwoman is still not satisfied by that - the demand is an absolute "I will not share space with males (except transwomen?)", then that is unreasonable. This is not a private facility - you're going to have to share it with other people. Maybe there might be enough demand for a transwomen-only time/space? Try to organise one?

Same basic logic works for competitive sports - sorry, but you're going to have to compete with other males, or arrange a transwomen-only event. (Because mixed-sex is not viable in competition).

No guy is going to throw on a frock to join a group of women on a walk in the wilderness.

I doubt that anyone is wearing a frock to go hiking. However, do abusive men adopt a persona to ingratiate themselves with their victims? Yes. For some women this means drawing a line and saying they need to physically separate themselves from all men in situations where they feel vulnerable, even 'nice' men. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

I think it's fine, but would wonder why they were excluding some men.

The same Katy Montgomery who listens to women going to the toilet and then explicitly talks about those women's toilet habits all over the internet? Sorry no thanks, I wouldn't be comfortable with someone like that.

Well I didn’t know about that so yuck! Do you have a link?

No, I'm talking about any man (male) wanting in to a female group. Why not? He's lonely.

Well then, no. Because there is value in having same sex spaces as long as everyone has equal opportunities and resources. And men have lots.

I agree with you. On a similar kind of note, I am waiting to see what happens at my small local gym. If TWAW are allowed to self identify pre op, there is one open plan changing room. If an alternative changing room is not offered (me or them) there's no way I'll be getting showered and changed, and will have to go somewhere else. I haven't asked what their policy would be, I probably should, but suspect there would be a fall out.I can't just go home to do it, as I go swimming.

Well yes, I would apply that logic to a trans man entering a male only group,

No, I'm talking about any man (male) wanting in to a female group. Why not? He's lonely.

So for example when I see/listen to Katie Montgomery I perceive her as female. I mean I disagree with a lot of what she says but that’s not the point. Apart from looking like a woman she has the mannerisms and speech pattern of one. So the way I would relate to her would be as a woman. And that’s not something I could help. So I’d be happy to count her as a fellow female, except obviously when it comes to biological matters, and would feel unjust in chucking her out of a woman only group.

The same Katy Montgomery who listens to women going to the toilet and then explicitly talks about those women's toilet habits all over the internet? Sorry no thanks, I wouldn't be comfortable with someone like that.

Why not apply the same logic about any male?

"On the other hand if a man genuinely wants to make friends then I would feel bad about excluding him, especially if (whatever) is making him lonely."

Well yes, I would apply that logic to a trans man entering a male only group, but I also take your point about a mixed sex group if there is one available.

What I suppose I’m getting at is for a trans person to successfully pass as and be treated as their desired sex, they are ultimately reliant on other people’s perception of what that biological sex is and that is a case by case basis.

When we meet a new person, the process we use to decide which sex a person is and then how we relate to them is a visceral one, based on a range of biological markers displayed by that person but also on a range of personality traits.

So for example when I see/listen to Katie Montgomery I perceive her as female. I mean I disagree with a lot of what she says but that’s not the point. Apart from looking like a woman she has the mannerisms and speech pattern of one. So the way I would relate to her would be as a woman. And that’s not something I could help. So I’d be happy to count her as a fellow female, except obviously when it comes to biological matters, and would feel unjust in chucking her out of a woman only group.