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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pronoun badges for train staff and mis-gendering passengers

233 replies

CervixSampler · 16/06/2021 17:01

Trans woman 'repeatedly misgendered' by Northern Rail worker at Piccadilly https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trans-woman-hits-out-after-20829187

This article doesn't say if they have a GRC but they have legally changed their name. Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see? To use Sir and he then the staff must have seen a male despite the facial surgery, acrylic nails, bra under their top land ponytail. I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it (awaiting ASD assessment) It's like a trans Stroop test. Just because I see a pony tail, long nails, and feminine facial features it doesn't mean that I will see a woman if other factors say male. Height, build, mannerisms, speech, voice, gait etc would all be interpreted as male and counter any feminine dressing and make up on the surface.

OP posts:
Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 20:58

The wording was:

"Just as the legal recognition of civil partnerships does not negate the right of a person to believe that marriage should only apply to heterosexual couples, becoming the acquired gender ‘for all purposes’ within the meaning of GRA does not negate a person’s right to believe, like the claimant, that as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex. Both beliefs may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing to many others, but they are beliefs that are and must be tolerated in a pluralist society.”

"This judgment does not mean that the EAT has expressed any view on the merits of either side of the transgender debate and nothing in it should be regarded as so doing. This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity.” (my italics)

I'm not a legal expert either, but I read that as meaning context is important. Expressing a gender-critical viewpoint is protected (1st paragraph) but misgendering an individual repeatedly for the purpose of goading/bullying them wouldn't be (2nd paragraph).

I'm happy to be corrected by anyone with legal expertise.

AnyOldPrion · 16/06/2021 20:56

Suppose, for the sake of argument, the article was about a natal woman who'd been repeatedly misgendered for whatever reason - do you think the absence of (perceived) 'male privilege' would mean everyone would say 'oh, that's all right then'?

Well as I stated clearly, I am not sure I agree with the point being made, I was simply explaining it.

In either case, I think very few people would say “that’s all right then”, but I think you’re still missing the point, which was about men being believed more than women, and is wholly unrelated to the response of the customer service men and whether their reaction was acceptable or not.

My personal suspicion is that fewer women would query a transman with a similar story, especially if they didn’t appear to be taking testosterone. On the balance of probabilities, I’d say a very tall male who claims to be a woman is more likely to have been aggressive and perceived as a potential threat, thus triggering an aggressive response from the other man (reasonably or unreasonably, depending on how polite you feel customer services personnel should be when faced with aggression) than a female who hasn’t had testosterone.

But that’s fairly nuanced and more related to understanding male and female behaviour patterns than about privilege, or lack of it. In other situations, men are more likely to be listened to and taken seriously.

To ask a related question, how many times have you seen articles about transmen being misgendered, complaining about it and being featured in newspapers? I suspect there is some related sex-based privilege going on.

Babdoc · 16/06/2021 20:54

How far does this go?
If I insist I identify as an Empress, and demand to be addressed as “Your imperial majesty” and be curtseyed to, are train staff obliged to humour me with that as well?
And if not, why not? What’s the difference?

AvantGardening · 16/06/2021 20:49

@DelilahDingleberry

If this isn’t misgendering someone, what does misgendering someone look like?

Bearing in mind the Maya Forstater judgement that says GC beliefs are protected beliefs, and also that the judgement cannot be used as a licence to go out and misgender people. There seems to be people on MN arguing that they can, should and will use sex based pronouns whether the person they are talking to likes that or not, but also a massive long thread where people are saying that they do support transpeople. What does support mean if you insist on calling a transperson by pronouns they have asked you not to use? So if misgendering someone isn’t using sex based pronouns, what is it?

I could be wrong but I read that judgement as the question of correctly sexing/misgendering is not addressed by that specific case and so is yet to be considered from a legal point of view.

So not

‘you shouldn’t misgender’

Merely

‘We have not yet considered if correctly sexing would be considered workplace harassment as it’s not relevant to this case or any that has been brought to court’

Not a legal eagle so I could be entirely wrong.

MilesOfSand · 16/06/2021 20:49

I don’t think the staff covered themselves in glory but I think switching to a neutral term or no address was the way to go. I don’t believe in compelling pronouns / sexed terms.

Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 20:47

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

It could be argued that pronouns are value neutral. They are purely a word to refer to a person of a particular sex. It is not harmful to call a woman "he", or a man "she". It is a mistake. In which case misgendering doesn't matter, it's simply an error of classification, not a judgement of the person.
Yes, if it happens once. If someone says 'Please don't refer to me as 'he' (or call me 'Sir') and it happens another four or five times, it starts to come across as being deliberately goady.

Suppose my name was 'Jane' and someone, by mistake, called me 'Sarah'. That wouldn't be offensive, just a mistake. But if I said 'My name is Jane, not Sarah' and in the same conversation the person continued to call me 'Sarah' I would conclude at best that they weren't listening to me (not acceptable in a customer service situation) and at worst, that they were doing it to annoy me. And that's a situation without any of the potentially sensitive undertones of misgendering.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/06/2021 20:39

It could be argued that pronouns are value neutral. They are purely a word to refer to a person of a particular sex. It is not harmful to call a woman "he", or a man "she". It is a mistake. In which case misgendering doesn't matter, it's simply an error of classification, not a judgement of the person.

DelilahDingleberry · 16/06/2021 20:25

Those of you saying you would “always” use sex based pronouns, how do you know you haven’t met a very “passable” transgender person? And again, are you really unable to see the difference between accidentally misgendering someone (whether transgender or not) and repeatedly using pronouns that you’ve been asked not to use.

Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 20:24

No assumptions were necessary. Eden explicitly asked not to be called 'Sir' and referred to as 'he'.

kowari · 16/06/2021 20:22

@MilesOfSand

But if biological sex is now fluid, why could they not be a man in a dress? We are apparently not supposed to make assumptions but also make assumptions.
I agree, I would always use sex based pronouns and titles unless corrected, that way I am not assuming gender. Otherwise should my long haired male child be continuously missexed to spare the feelings of another long haired male who wants people to pretend they are a woman? There are many long haired males, some who like to wear feminine clothing or wear makeup, who see themselves as men.
Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 20:18

@DelilahDingleberry

Why are people pushing the “maybe the employee didn’t realise”? It’s one thing to not realise someone is transgender, apologise, and use the preferred pronouns afterwards, another thing entirely to continuing saying sir five times.
Exactly. There have been some amazing mental gymnastics on this thread in an attempt to justify the station staff.
DelilahDingleberry · 16/06/2021 20:15

Why are people pushing the “maybe the employee didn’t realise”? It’s one thing to not realise someone is transgender, apologise, and use the preferred pronouns afterwards, another thing entirely to continuing saying sir five times.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 16/06/2021 20:14

Sounds like actual transphobia. The comment at the end kind of decides it. So, presuming it happened as was said I think a complaint is fair enough.
Saying that, I don't understand why people always insist on going to the papers about things these days, but I expect that is just me showing my age.
The hypocrisy on the pride virtue signalling is hardly surprising.

MilesOfSand · 16/06/2021 20:13

But if biological sex is now fluid, why could they not be a man in a dress? We are apparently not supposed to make assumptions but also make assumptions.

Erikrie · 16/06/2021 20:13

Well having had a quick search for them, in ordinary photos (not posed) they do look more masculine and they do sound male. If I wasn't paying much attention to the 'gender markers' they were putting out, and judging by the non posed 'real' photos, I think their 'gender' could be easy to miss. I think I could have easily made a similar mistake. But then, I wasn't there, so impossible to know the situation from the other 'side.'

DelilahDingleberry · 16/06/2021 20:11

If this isn’t misgendering someone, what does misgendering someone look like?

Bearing in mind the Maya Forstater judgement that says GC beliefs are protected beliefs, and also that the judgement cannot be used as a licence to go out and misgender people. There seems to be people on MN arguing that they can, should and will use sex based pronouns whether the person they are talking to likes that or not, but also a massive long thread where people are saying that they do support transpeople. What does support mean if you insist on calling a transperson by pronouns they have asked you not to use? So if misgendering someone isn’t using sex based pronouns, what is it?

kowari · 16/06/2021 20:08

Especially Eden-James, I would assume the person was male from that name.

kowari · 16/06/2021 20:07

I know a boy (biological male) called Eden so this name is no indicator of sex. Yes, the only Eden I've known was male. It had a similar sound to Aiden, I would place it on the male side of unisex myself.

Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 20:04

DD never found it necessary to throw a hissy fit or make complaints, however. She just got on with her day, as she’s not an attention seeking drama llama.

If your DD was repeatedly misgendered and genuinely didn't care, that's great for her. But that doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to be upset if they are misgendered.

If your DD is upset by it, then I don't think asking to be correctly addressed would make her an 'attention-seeking drama llama'. Rather, it would show a reasonable degree of assertiveness.

Eyjafjallajokulldottir · 16/06/2021 20:01

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Do tickets normally have your name on? I've always just been sent the tickets you get out the machines...
I know a boy (biological male) called Eden so this name is no indicator of sex.
Soontobe60 · 16/06/2021 20:00

@Arbadacarba

When was the last time you told a ticket inspector your name?

Unsurprisingly, the last time I wanted to make a complaint and was asked for my name. I'd have thought 'Can I take your name please?' was a standard question to a complaining customer, as Eden was.

They are actually called Eden-James. It’s literally the name on their passport. So if they did give their name, combined with the height and deep voice, one would assume they were a man dressed as a woman.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/06/2021 19:59

I thought initially they went to get their ticket issue sorted, then went back to complain about the misgendering?

I've given up correcting people who misgender me since about the age of 10. It still happens now occasionally. I feel sad for people who are so reliant on external validation rather than have confidence in themselves.

Babdoc · 16/06/2021 19:58

DD used to commute by train to her office. She has v short hair, and wore a suit and tie.
Train staff often mistakenly addressed her as “sir”.
DD never found it necessary to throw a hissy fit or make complaints, however. She just got on with her day, as she’s not an attention seeking drama llama.

Soontobe60 · 16/06/2021 19:57

@lazylinguist

If Eden looks in real life as in those pictures, then using 'sir' and 'he' was clearly deliberate, especially after Eden corrected them multiple times. Whatever one's views on the trans debate, there is really no call for being so deliberately rude to a customer after they have politely asked you to address them in a certain way.
Maybe try listening to them speak. They’ve got plenty of videos up on their Instagram account. Close your eyes and it’s a northern bloke from Chorley. Open them and you’re faced with a 6” 2” person dressed as you would expect a woman to be dressed, but with a very deep male voice.
Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 19:53

When was the last time you told a ticket inspector your name?

Unsurprisingly, the last time I wanted to make a complaint and was asked for my name. I'd have thought 'Can I take your name please?' was a standard question to a complaining customer, as Eden was.