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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pronoun badges for train staff and mis-gendering passengers

233 replies

CervixSampler · 16/06/2021 17:01

Trans woman 'repeatedly misgendered' by Northern Rail worker at Piccadilly https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trans-woman-hits-out-after-20829187

This article doesn't say if they have a GRC but they have legally changed their name. Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see? To use Sir and he then the staff must have seen a male despite the facial surgery, acrylic nails, bra under their top land ponytail. I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it (awaiting ASD assessment) It's like a trans Stroop test. Just because I see a pony tail, long nails, and feminine facial features it doesn't mean that I will see a woman if other factors say male. Height, build, mannerisms, speech, voice, gait etc would all be interpreted as male and counter any feminine dressing and make up on the surface.

OP posts:
DelilahDingleberry · 16/06/2021 22:10

Presumably because the OP believes she should be able to misgender people on the basis that she would be using sex based pronouns and therefore her GC beliefs take precedence over the right of transgender people to be referred to by their preferred pronouns.

KimikosNightmare · 16/06/2021 21:58

There are posters on here who deliberately or otherwise are doing their best to give lie to the claim "there's no transphobia here"

In fact why is this thread even posited as a feminist issue?

KimikosNightmare · 16/06/2021 21:55

[quote kowari]**@Arbadacarba
Then why am I never called Sir with a typical male haircut, no make up, and short nails?[/quote]
You are being disingenuous and you know it. Abracadabra explained this very well in her post.

As for calling you 'lady" , in the situation here the usage would clearly be done to be polite. If you don't like it , then as Abracadabra pointed out, say so.

If the person continued to use lady, then it ceases to be polite. That's what happened here- they were asked not to use "sir" but carried on doing so.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 16/06/2021 21:54

@AdHominemNonSequitur

I honestly think that this is is a rare case of actual/overt transphobia. The misgendering (beyond the first time and being corrected) was clearly done in a way calculated to hurt.

I interpret the ruling in the same way Arbadacarba.

Yes, I agree. A lot of usernames I don't recognize on this thread to argue the toss. Very strange they're absent from the more meaty threads.
Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 21:52

[quote kowari]**@Arbadacarba
Then why am I never called Sir with a typical male haircut, no make up, and short nails?[/quote]
Without seeing you/hearing you, it's impossible for me to comment. As I said in my post, the things mentioned are likely, but not exclusive indicators of sex/gender.

KimikosNightmare · 16/06/2021 21:50

@kowari

You might not like hearing "the lady here has a problem" but it's not mis- sexing or misgendering you. It does make me feel misgendered actually. I do not present as a lady at all, it feels like a feminine term. I would have no objection to woman as that is just referring to my sex
As I said the determination of some posters on here to take offence to the clearly well- intentioned use of "lady" or "gentleman" in this sort of situation should never be underestimated.
Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 21:49

So, speak up, kowari. Simply say 'I'd prefer you not to refer to me as 'this lady'.

As women, we shouldn't be afraid of being seen as 'attention-seeking drama llamas' (to quote a pp) if we simply state a reasonable preference in a reasonable manner.

This easy-labelling of women as 'attention-seekers' is partly why women, particularly middle-aged women, are terrified of standing up for their rights - it's where the dreaded 'Karen' label lurks.

kowari · 16/06/2021 21:48

@Arbadacarba
Then why am I never called Sir with a typical male haircut, no make up, and short nails?

DelilahDingleberry · 16/06/2021 21:46

Surely you can acknowledge that it’s far, far more common to see a woman with short hair, no makeup in “men’s” clothes but uses female pronouns than it would be to see a man in “womens clothes”, with a ponytail, acrylic nails and a bra who wants to be referred to as a man?

kowari · 16/06/2021 21:44

You might not like hearing "the lady here has a problem" but it's not mis- sexing or misgendering you.
It does make me feel misgendered actually. I do not present as a lady at all, it feels like a feminine term. I would have no objection to woman as that is just referring to my sex

Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 21:41

@kowari

You are taking her comment out of context and twisting it to suit your own agenda. I'm not deliberately twisting anything. What did the comment mean then? I have a barber cut and don't wear make up. I am in my DS's hand me down jeans. I don't get called Sir despite all the 'signs being there'.
As I said earlier, whether you like it or not, whether it's a good thing or not, in recent history (by which I mean from the 20th Century onwards) false nails and long hair have been associated with female fashion, not male fashion. Go back another hundred years or so and it would be the other way round, go forward a hundred years and they might be equally associated with both sexes, but at this present moment in time, false nails and long hair are associated more with women and female-identifying people, than they are with male and male-identifying people.

Acknowledging that fact is not the same as saying all women have long hair and false nails, or all women should have long hair and false nails, or absolutely no males/male-identifying people have long hair and false nails.

It's simply saying that having long hair and false nails in 2021 makes you more likely to be female or female-identifying.

To deny this is disingenuous.

KimikosNightmare · 16/06/2021 21:40

@kowari

Eden wasn't asking to be called a lady so your point is irrelevant. I disagree. Eden was asking not to be called Sir as they didn't like it. I hate being called a lady but I don't make a fuss whenever someone calls me one.
The comparator in this situation would be "ma'am" or "madam". If the employee had said "lady" to your face that actually would be very rude. If the employee were referring to Eden in the 3rd person "lady" is fine. Obviously it wouldn't be fine for you but the determination of some posters on here to take exception to the use of "lady" or "gentleman" in this sort of situation should never be underestimated.

And aside from that your point is still irrelevant. You might not like hearing "the lady here has a problem" but it's not mis- sexing or misgendering you. The direct comparator would be to say of you "the gentleman here has a problem"

kowari · 16/06/2021 21:31

You are taking her comment out of context and twisting it to suit your own agenda.
I'm not deliberately twisting anything. What did the comment mean then? I have a barber cut and don't wear make up. I am in my DS's hand me down jeans. I don't get called Sir despite all the 'signs being there'.

kowari · 16/06/2021 21:26

Eden wasn't asking to be called a lady so your point is irrelevant.
I disagree. Eden was asking not to be called Sir as they didn't like it. I hate being called a lady but I don't make a fuss whenever someone calls me one.

DdraigGoch · 16/06/2021 21:25

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Eden tried to compel the train staff to tell a lie?

They may have been rude, but they were also right, and if you are focusing on something else it makes it even harder to do a Stroop test correctly.

The inspector could have avoided anything gendered once it became apparent that it was a problem. "This customer has a problem with their ticket" might sound a bit impersonal but you can't be accused of anything. When you've got a difficult customer you've got to be very careful to keep to the high ground and bite your tongue. I had to yesterday when a lying, thieving scrote started making threats at me at work - I'd have dearly liked to have thrown him down the nearest set of stairs but instead had to just let it wash over me.
KimikosNightmare · 16/06/2021 21:24

@kowari

What relevance does that have to this incident? Eden seems to think that a ponytail, fake nails and a bra indicate that someone is a woman. "I was literally standing in front of him with a ponytail, acrylic nails and a bra on - all the signs were there.”
You are taking her comment out of context and twisting it to suit your own agenda.
DelilahDingleberry · 16/06/2021 21:23

Also really, really curious at the argument that natal women wouldn’t make a fuss. On the feminism board. Not making a fuss is not a good thing!

kowari · 16/06/2021 21:21

What relevance does that have to this incident?
Eden seems to think that a ponytail, fake nails and a bra indicate that someone is a woman. "I was literally standing in front of him with a ponytail, acrylic nails and a bra on - all the signs were there.”

KimikosNightmare · 16/06/2021 21:20

@kowari

Would a natal woman make a fuss and continuously correct a person missexing her if it wasn't relevant to the conversation? I know I wouldn't. I've not insisted that I not be called a lady even though I hate it.
Eden wasn't asking to be called a lady so your point is irrelevant.

I doubt I would ever be mistaken for a man although as men and women age the difference in facial features and proportions can change making some women look ambiguously masculine. If that were to happen to me, that in itself would be distressing and being repeatedly called "he" if I'd pointed out the error would be upsetting. Not enough to run to the press but probably enough to complain to the company.

Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 21:17

@Babdoc

How far does this go? If I insist I identify as an Empress, and demand to be addressed as “Your imperial majesty” and be curtseyed to, are train staff obliged to humour me with that as well? And if not, why not? What’s the difference?
If Northern Rail are similar to other customer-facing organisations, they will honour social titles and their associated styles of address.
AdHominemNonSequitur · 16/06/2021 21:16

I honestly think that this is is a rare case of actual/overt transphobia. The misgendering (beyond the first time and being corrected) was clearly done in a way calculated to hurt.

I interpret the ruling in the same way Arbadacarba.

justanotherneighinparadise · 16/06/2021 21:14

Oh my goodness. That story! 🙈

KimikosNightmare · 16/06/2021 21:12

@TheFleegleHasLanded

I am clearly failing as a woman today, having neither acrylic nails nor a ponytail. I am wearing a bra as I am more comfortable wearing one, but other than that I am beginning to wonder if I am a man? All the signs are there; short hair, trousers, comfortable shoes.....
What relevance does that have to this incident?
Arbadacarba · 16/06/2021 21:05

To ask a related question, how many times have you seen articles about transmen being misgendered, complaining about it and being featured in newspapers? I suspect there is some related sex-based privilege going on.

I agree, you don't tend to see this, but there might be multiple reasons (or a combination of factors) in play. As you say, it may be a matter of privilege - it may be that legacy-privilege means transwomen are more likely to speak out about misgendering and more likely to be heard by journalists.

It may be that it happens less often - I'm not an expert but anecdotally, it seems generally easier for transmen to pass than for transwomen.

kowari · 16/06/2021 21:03

@DelilahDingleberry

Those of you saying you would “always” use sex based pronouns, how do you know you haven’t met a very “passable” transgender person? And again, are you really unable to see the difference between accidentally misgendering someone (whether transgender or not) and repeatedly using pronouns that you’ve been asked not to use.
I would use sex based, based on what I perceived their sex to be, as I wouldn't have a clue what their gender was. I would not use pronouns I was asked not to use, at that point I would use gender neutral pronouns. I find it hard enough to switch to gender neutral let alone saying the opposite of what is in front of me though. I find it makes it difficult to focus on the actual communication and I would still be likely to slip up.
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