Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

I also hope it's not reported.

'You can’t have a discussion on this subject when one side is coming at it from the point of view that transwomen are actually women. '

I think that's not it.

My view is that women and girls have generally been and still pretty much still are condsidered to be what men/ male dominated society say we are.

We are -by strangers and people who don't know us well and often those who do- seen in terms of types. 2D cardboard cutouts.

Men like to put us into the role they deem us to fit.

MILF
Jailbait
Tart
Old dear
Angry feminist
Bimbo
Ballbreaker

Etc etc

You get given a type and you are supposed to meet it.

Same as the all women love prosecco type stuff.

When you do something out of the 2D role given its met with confusion, dismay, anger.

So given this, what is a woman? Current opinion. No solid definition.

A woman is anyone who says they're a woman
The ones who take a passive role in sex and are valuable economically by having children
A formless entity (or whatever it was)
Women is a social role and always has been
Sure there's plenty.

So, we are just sort of templates with a 2D type attached.

Very few people are using woman to mean anything like what it used to mean.

When people say TWAW what they mean is that their understanding of what the definition of woman is, is different to what it meant to pretty much everyone up until recent history, and to the vast majority of the population still does.

Anyone can be s woman because a woman is whatever others want them to be.

It stems from massive sexism in other words. And changing really commonly used language. And saying it's not a change it always meant that.

The response to women saying no is the same response I described upthread. Confusion, dismay, anger.

I do hope no-one reports that post, it should be kept in all it's glory.

Well that's us told

Tiens.

as a trans person (he/him) who's very active within the community, i can speak on this. i'm only going to name two of the most well-known groups, but there is a lot of nuance to this topic. moreover, they are not opposites. i think about it like factions, like in skyrim. they exist as seperate entities, they don't exist to spite each other.

suffice it to say, there are quite a lot of trans 'gender-criticals', although they don't use that exact definition. we've got transmeds (or truscum, as they're also known), who are trans people who believe you need dysphoria and medical transition to be trans. however, they're not very well liked in the community these days, as they've proven to be very boorish and obnoxious.

some of the most notable truscums include kalvin garrah (he/him) and blaire white (she/her). there are many more, of course, but these are the most outward personalities. they have youtube channels, which are more or less relics in the modern age, as they both had large cult-like fanbases which they would sicc on people they disagreed with (janae marie-croc, brennen beckwith, and lars come to mind). kalvin garrah had quite a profound effect on the internalised thoughts of many members of the transmasculine community (that is to say, trans men and xx nonbinary people), to the point where some of garrah's victims attempted suicide, and thankfully didn't succeed.

then you've got gender-abolitionists, who believe gender is regressive and outdated, and believe that anyone can use any set of pronouns regardless of sex or gender. best case scenario for them: two people are at a bar. they are neither men nor women. their sexes may differ, they might not. the main point is that it doesn't matter. they believe that gender shouldn't have any impact on the way people are viewed by society. despite sharing the belief with gender-criticals that gender isn't real, they're staunchly against gender-critical ideology and hold respect of trans people on a pedestal, as there is scientific evidence for our existence. they also recognise that we, as a marginalised group, are prone to extreme violence suffered against us by cis transphobes. in my opinion, i hold beliefs similar to gender-abolitionists, but i personally see it as a pipe-dream, or some kind of relief. the idea that i could go about my business as a trans man, just existing? the very concept of such a thing is like heroin to me - something i can never have, but i know that if i were to experience it, i would never want to live another second without it.

personally, i don't like truscum, as i've had bad experiences with them in the past, and they're too right wing for me. i'm not so much of a gender-abolitionist because i feel a strong connection to my gender. if you've read this far, thanks! i'll be listing some miscellaneous resources and video essays i find interesting in this section here:

JK Rowling - Contrapoints - she/her -

Kalvin Garrah is far WORSE than you thought - Copshatemoe - they/them

The Aftermath Of Kalvin Garrah - Copshatemoe - they/them (part 2)

Tracing the Roots of Pop-Culture Transphobia - Lindsay Ellis - she/her

JK Rowling's Transphobia Explained (A Rant) - Jessie Gender - she/her

Breaking Down JK Rowling's Transphobic Essay - Jessie Gender - she/her

Responding To JK Rowling's Essay | Is It Anti-Trans? - Jammidodger and Shaaba (he/him and she/her respectively)

Gender Critical - Contrapoints - she/her

Identity: A Trans Coming Out Story - Philosophy Tube - she/her

Transphobia: An Analysis - Philosophy Tube - she/her

Witchcraft, Gender, & Marxism - Philosophy Tube - she/her

and lastly, there's a documentary on netflix called 'disclosure' which is centred around the discussion of trans identity and portrayal of us in mainstream media. i've watched it many a time, i can gladly vouch for it.

and this is just a reminder for reminding's sake. i do use he/him pronouns, not they/them or she/her. if you're going to refer to me, use he/him. they are my pronouns. they're not preferred, they're obligatory. referring to me as they/them is still very much misgendering and frankly i find it just as insulting. and if anyone's reading this and wondering? no, i will not tell you about my genitals. no, i will not tell you about my hormone levels. no, i will not bequeath unto you my sacred childhood memories, so that you might sift through them and find reasons for my 'disease'. if that is what you look for, you will be sorely disappointed.

going to end this here by saying maya forstater signed for a campaign which argues for the 'elimination of transgenderism'. if you're gender-critical and reading this whilst questioning your beliefs, this is your proof, take it and run. as long as you continue fighting for forstater, you fight for elite transphobia of the highest degree. i don't want to die. put down your sword and your shield, because you're battling shades.

thanks for reading.

At the end of the day, even if a trans woman is truly, literally a woman, a person truly, literally akin to most (but not all) female people and unakin to most (but not all) male people in some deep way that we have hitherto been unaware of, and even if the entire concept of sex as a meaningful grouping is flawed, it doesn't change the fact that for most of human history sex has been seen as significant, and that female people have suffered structural disempowerment because of their sex, and that a structural disadvantage to being female is still baked into our society even if the concept of woman it was based on all that time was wrong.

So even if you don't believe biological sex has any objective meaning, that simple fact of the historic disadvantage applied to female people based only on their sex makes female people a meaningful group.

And trans women, no matter how truly and fundamentally they really are women, are not members of the historically disadvantaged group of people with female bodies and should not be appropriating the protections and opportunities society has set aside for that group.

If we, as a society, truly believe it's time to redefine Woman to include male people, we owe it to both female people and trans women to take a clear-eyed look at what this new version of Woman needs. It's not good enough, for either female people or trans women, to just transfer everything built for female people over wholesale and assume it's going to work for a group that also includes males.

You can’t have a discussion on this subject when one side is coming at it from the point of view that transwomen are actually women. Even if they actually believe it, which in a country of 60 million people there’s bound to be someone who actually literally thinks this is true, you have to acknowledge that it is not the common understanding of what a woman is that has been used for thousands of years, and it certainly isn’t in women’s interests to use that definition. You should be honest and state up front that is your position and also how you came to such an unusual belief.

It's obviously no surprise, but I am quite surprised that bug admitted it.

Like it is akin to being 'rapey' using the term female when they themselves had already indicated that women always includes males so there were no words left to use unless we jumped through hoops at midnight to clarify which particular people we referred to?

Bug also did admit that clearly a newly transitioned male should not rightly take the role of a women's officer set aside for women but that it is excellent that a mature aged transitioner or two who had a long history of enjoying male career advantages can show women a thing or two about fighting sex discrimination and a couple of 'trans feminists' should be on panels advising women how to progress their careers effectively.

I am not sure that Bug had a great deal of experience in the area of directly experiencing and dealing with the amount of shit that is sex discrimination as a female to be fair. I guess we can draw a few conclusions about why that is so.

Just like we can draw conclusions about the attraction to this thread of an evening by new posters that take a slightly different tone each time but still lack coherency.

It's obviously no surprise, but I am quite surprised that bug admitted it.

Who? Which transwoman is more informed about feminism than me?

I, for one, am still waiting for the answer to this.

At the end of the day, there are transwomen more informed about feminism than both you and I, and there are idiots.

Who? Which transwoman is more informed about feminism than me?

I guess the problem is we fundamentally disagree on if trans women even are women. As you see them as not, you believe that a man is stealing a women's opportunity whereas I see a woman - an arguably more deserving one - gaining an opportunity. And I doubt i can convince you otherwise

Let's quote this again so that everyone see the fucking misogynist SHITE that is peddled in the name of transactivism.

Have I just read this right? That trans women are MORE deserving than born women of women’s opportunities? So I have gone through the last 40 years of shite, sexual abuse, sexism in the work place, assaults on a night out, I can’t even take a walk in the park alone with out being harassed, because I have a womb and tits? The shite women’s healthcare, the invisibility of middle age and I’m about to become peri menopausal, there’s a history of prolapses and breast cancer I’ve to look forward to too but I don’t deserve opportunities if there’s a fucking penis in the vicinity? To be fair you are right that’s the story of my bastard life.

Oh, I got deleted for objecting to being described with a word that's actually supposed to be banned. One rule for some people, then, and quite another for the rest of us (like I didn't already know this).

I have seen transwomen saying they are female and have been since birth.

That's the problem when the idea is that words mean whatever you want them to mean.

I have also seen transwomen say they are cis.

Yes so have I. As you said, when words don't have meanings, and science can be denied, people who don't think women should have any sex based rights will just use whatever word we have. Because women are women are women, right?

And yet, there are quite a number of examples of just this happening. And these people are not doing their job representing females. Their focus has been on trans issues. So, females lose out all round. Oh, and those organisations already have LGBT representation roles too.

Yes, exactly. Look at some of the "women's officers" Labour have/had and the contempt they have for women, including those in their own constituency.

This conversation is no longer productive

Oh I think it has been.

nicegerbil

Yes. I have seen this too. I think many regular readers of this board see the claim to being female regularly posted.

And yes. They do claim to have been born female too.

It must be frustrating for those people to be told otherwise. To be told that they are science deniers and their attempts to destablise science and subsequently society is only believed by a minuscule number of people. Even though people might pretend to believe it, they do not and that must be maddening.

Some people are though.

I have seen transwomen saying they are female and have been since birth.

That's the problem when the idea is that words mean whatever you want them to mean.

I have also seen transwomen say they are cis.

Is the need to erase the word female because it's a lot harder to say transwomen are females than it is transwomen are women?

I expect so. We are constantly told that no one is denying the material reality of their sex. So, if a poster can use that well rehearsed mantra, they can’t then say they are female.

It generally does sound dehumanising. However. There's no other options at this point.

To have to point out that female humans are people every time you reference the relevant sex class is long winded and also dehumanising. It's like if you said female in s context that obviously refers to humans, if you don't point out they're people then that wouldn't be taken as read.

I am baffled as to how women who are, for example.

Lifelong feminist activists
Lesbian
Gender non conforming in how they choose to look

Can be cis?

In what way is homosexuality, GNC appearance, and most of all, arguing with men and fighting against things they believe are wrong

In line with bug's definition of gender which is being comfortable in sex role/ gender stereotypes??

It's not is it.

'Cis' is being used to mean. I'm calling you what I want to whether it's true or not. That's entitlement and power.

I'm calling you this because it means i can disregard your views/ opinions (why? Because gender stereotypes say that women are emotional and irrational, not logical. That they are frivolous, not serious. That they lie irrespective of the consequences for others, because they are self centred and vindictive etc etc).

So there you go.