Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

Magdalen Berns on Alok:

It's not logical, but I do think there is an element in your question, OP, that's maybe a bit of an assumption.

Which is that all the things that signal gender, like clothes, are really what people are interested in. So a man who prefers dresses is really just interested in dresses, and if somehow if dresses could be equally worn by anyone, they would be better off. (And I know I am being a little reductive about it just being about clothes here, I'm just trying to keep my example simple.)

I don't think that's really what is going on at all. While some people may not care about signalling their sex through clothing, and some people are even a little uncomfortable about it, the reason for things like gendered clothing and certain other cultural attachments to sex is largely that a lot of people do like to relate their presentation to some extent, some of the time, to their sex.

Using myself as an example, a lot of the time my clothing is pretty neutral, even if I wear a skirt it's a practical choce rather than anything else. But some of the time I dress in a way that is more overly feminine, and the reason I like that is because it's overly feminine. Occasionally I even like being more masculine and the reason I like that is that it's more masculine. Femininity or masculinity without a reference to sex are meaningless, even if we "gender bend" and move outside of that.

So without getting too far into motivations, the whole point for the people you are talking about is about femininity or masculinity, and if dressing like a woman means wearing a dress, or wearing mukluks, that is going to be what they look to do. Wearing a gender neutral dress would not be of interest.

IMO the idea that most people might one day decide to give up on noticing or wanting to have clothing or some other cultural signals about sex is pie in the sky. Most people like these so long as they aren't terribly restrictive, and I don't see that changing, unless we somehow get rid of sexed bodies altogether.

Trans women, like all women, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditonally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

I have periods every months trans women don't. I carry babies and nearly died the last time I gave birth to my last child trans women don't have that problem. I have menopause to look forward to trans women don't and the list goes on. Trans women are not like all women that is a fantasy.

It used to be impossible to access medical support without ascribing to a nice set of stereotypes - trans women were turned away from further assistance simply for coming to appointments wearing ladies' cut jeans, instead of a pretty skirt. Or any kind of skirt at all.

That sounds really shitty I hope you got the support you needed.

I forgot to finish! GC positions tend to be empirically based and ask people to think for themselves (really think. Not just "do the research"). It's like kryptonite to TRAs.

Because all forms of critical theory are about power. All forms of discussion and argument are therefore about supporting or countering power. They are not about developing a deeper understanding of the world we live in. Reason is the servant, or the opponent, of power. It is nothing in itself.

Positions are sacrosanct, and to question them is immoral, and punishable. Contradiction and irrationality are presented as playfulness and satire. The effect of this, and in many cases the intent, is to keep people off balance and controllable. And feeling guilty.

It used to be impossible to access medical support without ascribing to a nice set of stereotypes - trans women were turned away from further assistance simply for coming to appointments wearing ladies' cut jeans, instead of a pretty skirt. Or any kind of skirt at all.

Yes, that's because society is sexist and there's this idea that if a male really makes an effort to dress in a "feminine" manner, they must therefore really be a woman. Women suffer from this stereotyping too.

20 years ago I thought David Beckham was a pointless attention seeker. If he were to be wearing that sarong as a new thing today I'd argue that he was a cutting edge progressive trying to show vulnerable trans teens that gender expression and identity do not need to be welded together.

He's only a footballer nothing else between the ears. He was messing about. David Bowie is more interesting than him.

It's amusing when posters post links to people like Alok as if they expect it to be a killer response. That sort of thing really isn't going to convince people who aren't already believers!

I would also recommend watching PeachYoghurt's videos www.youtube.com/user/Perzikyoghurt/videos on YouTube. She is brilliant.

(Warning; that piece has v accurate and entirely reasonable descriptions of sex and sexual development and goes randomly squew whiff at the end concluding that therefore, trans exists)

Trans women, like all women, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditonally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

It used to be impossible to access medical support without ascribing to a nice set of stereotypes - trans women were turned away from further assistance simply for coming to appointments wearing ladies' cut jeans, instead of a pretty skirt. Or any kind of skirt at all.

An otherwise very clever woman, believes herself a feminist, was entirely persuaded by this writer's stuff and a podcast with a Brit called scrobius somebody. Who was apologising for some transgression by having them on.

Transphobia absolutely does exist, and a lot of it is also/ or homophobia. The US is v different to the uk, and it probably is harder to be different and non conforming in some areas, but this isn't an argument to therefore prove actuality of the sexist 'wrong body' idea with sexist ideas about genes and hormones.

As many know there's no logic to it and want to avoid being labelled sexist, they're starting to appropriate differences of sexual development, DSDs, aka intersex conditions.

It's still entirely illogical and uses scientific words as smoke and mirrors and to fool the reader:

www.simonesun.com/blog/2019/2/24/stop-using-science-to-justify-transphobia-facts-dont-care-about-your-feelings-d88g5

Even the title is ridiculous. Notable that the writer is a neuroscientist and artist.

Yep. It's the complete illogicality of it all that winds me up.

I like things like Ru Paul's Drag Race. Here we see some men playing with "what it means to be a man" to gleefully expand the definition. Men with make-up blogs, all still identifying as men. THat's what I want to see: that being male or female shouldn't dictate what you think/like/wear.

The sheer regressive, sexist stereotypes that TRAs seem to cling to really boil my blood. "LOOK I'M A WOMAN" they shriek, because they've got lipstick and a skirt on, then at the drop of a hat they're threatening GCs with rape and violence.....just like the male sexist stereotype they're apparently nothing to do with.

User52739

I urge you to visit that Magdalen Burns video and even if you do not watch it, there is a link to something the person you have recommended as a source of authority posted that should set alarm bells ringing.

Read it and make up your own mind.

It’s because being gender critical would require males to be more accepting. Far easier to foist things on females.

Every time I watch Magdalen, I feel a renewed energy for fighting this shit.

poptopic.com.au/tech/twitter-defends-gross-little-girls-are-kinky-tweet-by-alok-vaid-menon/

Magdalen Berns at her fuming best.

[quote InspiralCoalescenceRingdown]@Helleofabore Magdalen Berns is worth posting twice, though.[/quote]
I agree!

On this issue she is directly to the point.

AfternoonToffee

Alok is a great example of someone who depends on people accepting sexist stereotypes for themselves and society so that they can be perceived as being challenging them.

I would consider them actually pretty stereotypical for what the wider scope of their interests seem to be.

@Helleofabore Magdalen Berns is worth posting twice, though.

I've just looked at some Alox stuff. I don't think it has cleared up anything at all.

oh. cross post!