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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

630 replies

oxcat1 · 15/06/2021 11:24

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

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jay55 · 15/06/2021 15:09

Because they love labels.
You can't be special unless you have a label to tell everyone you're special.

KimikosNightmare · 15/06/2021 15:03

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Bowie is a good example of someone experimenting with clothes and not calling himself a woman because of it. This observation doesn't mean GC feminists have to agree with any other aspect of his life. The white Duke phase, drugs etc are problematic. But it doesn't change the fact that the man could wear long hair and a blouse without insisting he'd changed sex.
The sex with underage groupies is just an unfortunate blip?
KimikosNightmare · 15/06/2021 15:02

I wonder if you'd be so dismissive of a female football player or sports woman who had a similar stellar career? Beckham is the second highest capped England Internationalist and was England captain for 6 years as well as playing for 3 of the most successful teams in the world.

You might not be interested in football as such- no reason why you should be- but describing Beckham as "just a not-particularly interesting young man" is bizarre.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 14:58

And similarly I can observe that Beckham wore gender non conforming clothes without 'changing gender'. That doesn't stop me from thinking the way he treats his wife is awful.
This is the problem with black and white thinking.
I think it's an interesting point, Assassinated, I'd also say that Harry styles and Sam Smith are insulated from the consequence of gender non conforming in the same way. I'd be interested to know how many men compared to women identify as non binary in the populace. It seems to be a female heavy led movement on the ground, with some celebrity male outlines.
This is pure conjecture as I have no data to back it up. I'd be interested.if anyone has any though.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 14:52

Bowie is a good example of someone experimenting with clothes and not calling himself a woman because of it.
This observation doesn't mean GC feminists have to agree with any other aspect of his life. The white Duke phase, drugs etc are problematic.
But it doesn't change the fact that the man could wear long hair and a blouse without insisting he'd changed sex.

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/06/2021 14:49

The interesting point about David Beckham is that he was just a not-particularly interesting young man who was very famous. He was able to wear the sarong without it being an issue for him, just because he felt like wearing it. No particular thought process or statement being made. No one assumed he was non-binary, or gay, or feminine, or somehow a lesser man. Of course he was insulated from a lot of that due to his job status, his partner status and his wealth, being perceived as very masculine.

KimikosNightmare · 15/06/2021 14:45

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

You might also try Googling Dana Gillespie and Lori Maddox before embarrassing yourself about how "gender nonconforming" Bowie was.

It weren't intended to be a nasty comment I loved David Bowie from when I was a child I even named my daughter after his wife Iman. I thought David Becham was a terrible example to use.

Furthermore, I am a woman but people see me more as a Tom boy which is why I liked David Bowie so much.

Your comment about David Beckham was nasty and pointless. Beckham actually probably was doing more to break down gender norms than Bowie.

There's something really desperate and depressing in the way so called gender critical feminists keep harping on about Bowie as being a good example.

PumpkinSpiceWoman · 15/06/2021 14:44

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool · 15/06/2021 14:37

You might also try Googling Dana Gillespie and Lori Maddox before embarrassing yourself about how "gender nonconforming" Bowie was.

It weren't intended to be a nasty comment I loved David Bowie from when I was a child I even named my daughter after his wife Iman. I thought David Becham was a terrible example to use.

Furthermore, I am a woman but people see me more as a Tom boy which is why I liked David Bowie so much.

KimikosNightmare · 15/06/2021 14:27

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

20 years ago I thought David Beckham was a pointless attention seeker. If he were to be wearing that sarong as a new thing today I'd argue that he was a cutting edge progressive trying to show vulnerable trans teens that gender expression and identity do not need to be welded together.

He's only a footballer nothing else between the ears. He was messing about. David Bowie is more interesting than him.

What a nasty comment.

You might also try Googling Dana Gillespie and Lori Maddox before embarrassing yourself about how "gender nonconforming" Bowie was.

Lonel · 15/06/2021 14:24

*your mum

paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool · 15/06/2021 14:17

"When woke kids asked me if I was a lesbian or a transboy because I cut my hair short, it should tell you these modern identities are superficial."

When did lives become so much harder for women and girls to live. In the 90's it was never this difficult.

CardinalLolzy · 15/06/2021 14:17

Loads of pro-trans-rights people aren't the TRAs you see on Twitter. I've seen many saying 'gender is bullshit' 'gender is harmful' etc (and allies agreeing) but then... it's also great to be the 'other' gender and it defines you?
I kind of wish the word 'gender' would disappear and people would have to use more descriptive language.

Lonel · 15/06/2021 14:13

Trans ideology relies heavily on gender based norms. In fact, it is essential that to be queer, someone else has to be boring old "cis". I think this explains the anger towards older women "coming out" as non-binary by saying they don't have a gender identity. If you're mum is non-binary, who is going to cook your dinner??

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 15/06/2021 13:57

Actually, this thread reminded me of the young woman who gave a speech to her school district in the states:

nypost.com/2021/06/11/virginia-girl-slams-school-board-for-trans-locker-room-policy/

"When woke kids asked me if I was a lesbian or a transboy because I cut my hair short, it should tell you these modern identities are superficial."

Helleofabore · 15/06/2021 13:57

Trans women, like all women, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditonally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

So then, what makes them believe they are a woman?

Or is it merely the truly offensive belief that they are simply 'not a man'? And offensive, because that is how women have been described throughout history.

Even recent history when England Rugby defined a female as someone who had not had a testerostone driven puberty or some such twaddle.

And why should women agree then that that person is 'just like them'?

NecessaryScene · 15/06/2021 13:49

Yes, that's because society is sexist and there's this idea that if a male really makes an effort to dress in a "feminine" manner, they must therefore really be a woman.

Indeed. That is sexist. You don't correct that by saying "any male can be a woman". That might be dropping the stereotype, but it continues the fundamental sexism - denying that women are a sex class.

The correct and non-sexist position is "no male can be a woman".

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 15/06/2021 13:47

Trans women, like all women, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditonally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

I noticed some errors here, so I've fixed it for you:

Transwomen, like all men, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditionally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

JediGnot · 15/06/2021 13:36

@DialSquare

Every time I watch Magdalen, I feel a renewed energy for fighting this shit.
Every time I watch Magdalen I'm close to tears. Very few "celebrity" deaths affect me at all, and I didn't even know of MB until a few months ago. But I can honestly say she's in a very small group - which includes a couple of singer-songwriters who wrote songs that really touched me as a teenager - of people who I am sad and angry aren't still around.
BreatheAndFocus · 15/06/2021 13:20

It’s because they don’t want to break down the stereotypes, they like the stereotypes and want to fit in to them, just not the usual stereotypes that are associated with their sex

It’s tragic that in 2021 people feel the need to declare themselves NB in order to ‘give themselves permission’ to wear clothes they wrongly perceive to be associated only with the opposite sex. How tf have we gone so backwards in just a few years?

If Alok is supposed to be a good example here, that’s even worse. How can Alok think they’re being daring or different? It’s so arse-tighteningly conservative.

Soontobe60 · 15/06/2021 13:19

@ClawedButler

Yep. It's the complete illogicality of it all that winds me up.

I like things like Ru Paul's Drag Race. Here we see some men playing with "what it means to be a man" to gleefully expand the definition. Men with make-up blogs, all still identifying as men. THat's what I want to see: that being male or female shouldn't dictate what you think/like/wear.

The sheer regressive, sexist stereotypes that TRAs seem to cling to really boil my blood. "LOOK I'M A WOMAN" they shriek, because they've got lipstick and a skirt on, then at the drop of a hat they're threatening GCs with rape and violence.....just like the male sexist stereotype they're apparently nothing to do with.

“Playing with what it means to be a man”? Then why do they all refer to each other as if they were female? Why do they have misogynistic names?
GroggyLegs · 15/06/2021 13:18

I have often wondered this.

Makes zero sense to me, but then again I was only allowed to think that you can't change sex since last week, so what do I know?

ScreamingMeMe · 15/06/2021 13:18

Oh bugger! Already been posted!

paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool · 15/06/2021 13:15

I don't dress girly I dress that makes me feel comfortable. People used to call me a Tom boy. I have 3 daughters who are in secondary school and I would say they take after me they are laid back the girls at there school called them lesbians. My daughters were a little upset about it because they didn't come across as girly enough for them. If they were into the same sex then great as long as they are happy and they meet a nice woman to marry. They are not they are into boys. Society does judge you on how you dress and what you wear.

TheRebelle · 15/06/2021 13:07

It’s because they don’t want to break down the stereotypes, they like the stereotypes and want to fit in to them, just not the usual stereotypes that are associated with their sex. Don’t forget that there are some people out there who just like to be awkward so if they hear that men can enter women’s spaces by simply declaring that they feel like a woman then they’ll do it for the power trip.

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