Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

Helen8220 I can see that that might be the case for the "old school transexuals and I think it's helpful to think about that for some people, but I definitely think that isn't it for many (most?) of the people who are now claiming to be transgender. But even if that is the case, there's no reason why their right to not feel uncomfortable or safe should override mine.

[quote Helen8220]@oxcat1

I can’t speak for all TRAs (not what I would generally call myself but I probably am in MN terms) but I certainly consider gender norms to be socially constructed and largely detrimental. It seems to me a big part of the difference between my view and that of most ‘GC’ people comes down to how powerful and pervasive you think gender norms are, and how easy you think it is to be gender non-conforming.

I think that gender norms shape who we are from a very young age - whether we embrace them, conform to them unwillingly, or actively rebel against them. I also think that people who fail to conform often face severe consequences, from outward aggression to exclusion and rejection, as well as internalised shame and judgement. So I don’t think it’s surprising that a person who has a strong sense of discomfort with - even revulsion towards - the set of expectations that apply to their biological sex might feel their only option is to ‘live as’ the other sex.[/quote]
Interested to hear more about how you think your views are different from ‘GC’ because your second paragraph sounds entirely consistent with what I and every gender critical feminist I’ve ever discussed this with would agree with as one of the possible explanations for desire to transition.

@AdHominemNonSequitur
I was so tempted to make that joke

@oxcat1

I can’t speak for all TRAs (not what I would generally call myself but I probably am in MN terms) but I certainly consider gender norms to be socially constructed and largely detrimental. It seems to me a big part of the difference between my view and that of most ‘GC’ people comes down to how powerful and pervasive you think gender norms are, and how easy you think it is to be gender non-conforming.

I think that gender norms shape who we are from a very young age - whether we embrace them, conform to them unwillingly, or actively rebel against them. I also think that people who fail to conform often face severe consequences, from outward aggression to exclusion and rejection, as well as internalised shame and judgement. So I don’t think it’s surprising that a person who has a strong sense of discomfort with - even revulsion towards - the set of expectations that apply to their biological sex might feel their only option is to ‘live as’ the other sex.

I suspect that many trans people's identity does follow on from their expression (which may be innate, or may be a teenage affectation), but I also suspect that it's the other way round for others.

To be fair the trans lobby does seem to distinguish gender identity

Where does this "identity" come from? Is it like a belief in a disembodied soul? I don't accept that there is a split between identity and expression, when all "how I became trans" stories focus on male children not wanting to play with trucks etc.

I may not be the best qualified person to speak on this, as a bisexual, but I would say I’m attracted to other things about a person more than their primary or secondary sex characteristics - their face, voice, general mannerisms. I’ve been attracted to trans men who have neither breasts nor a penis
My sexual orientation is hetero. There's no way I'd be be attracted to someone with a vagina.

It's also a protected characteristic.

Those things you mention, face, voice, mannerisms differ significantly depending on whether the person is male or female.

It's also a protected characteristic.

LewishamMum

And another thing....lesbians are told off for describing themselves as same sex, rather than same gender. But you are sexually attracted by (crudely) dicks and/or breasts not by whether someone likes rugby or ballet...

I may not be the best qualified person to speak on this, as a bisexual, but I would say I’m attracted to other things about a person more than their primary or secondary sex characteristics - their face, voice, general mannerisms. I’ve been attracted to trans men who have neither breasts nor a penis

There was one particular transwoman on here, who said it's because it was the only way they could be 'vibrant'.

But as women started, very clearly with examples, to point out that gender stereotyping was as sexist as all get out, it stopped. Then it became an unidentifiable, unverifiable, indescribable essence. (That still involved sexist gender stereotyping).

Does piss me off the way gender - a feminist concept about how women are restricted by society - has been turned on its' head to mean the very opposite.

Because they don't think gender is just a collection of stereotypes and societal expectations. They think it's an essential, inherent part of your soul, or something.

And another thing....lesbians are told off for describing themselves as same sex, rather than same gender. But you are sexually attracted by (crudely) dicks and/or breasts not by whether someone likes rugby or ballet...

Beckham very very uninteresting (other than, off the top of my head, the wearing a sarong, which was a bit of a curve-ball from a footballer)

It is a working class sport after all.

A few weeks ago on This Morning, they featured the parents of a 4 year old (yes, 4 year old) trans kid. And Holly was wanging on about how society wants to put people into 'boy boxes' and 'girl boxes' and how wrong that is blah blah blah, but that's exactly what trans ideology does. Thus child is a biological female who wants to wear 'boys clothes' and have a 'short haircut' and that means she is actually a boy? If that's not putting children into 'boxes' then I don't know what is?

'Little girls are kinky' Alok?

I basically agree with you, subject to the caveat that it does seem to me to be perfectly possible, in theory at least, to identify as a formally hyper-masculine "man's man" who wishes to retain his original gender expression and has no shared bond with other women, but is, somehow, convinced of his womanhood. In other words I am both disagreeing with you a little, whilst agreeing completely that the whole thing is nuts.

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

Perhaps you could furnish us with your definition of "woman" that is neither based on biological sex or sex stereotypes? That would be very helpful, as I've never yet had one given.

Maybe because we have so many examples of exactly what we are suggesting. Including a great one from this week where one person asked the question:

'I guess the question for today is: What are little things I can do to feel more feminine that don't involve clothing or make up?'

An answer was... wait for it ....

'Have you worked on your hand writing at all? Grab some fun coloured pens and work on what (sic) your signature. Love seeing my name in so many colours. Grab some girly stationary and write someone an actual letter. Add soft music, candles and tea. Same with a journal. ...'

yep. coloured pens. no. hang on. The fun kind of coloured pens. And girly stationary.

This is replicated many times a day across every social media platform.

of course, we have also seen a women's co-chair for the Green Party declare how wonderful hormones are because now they can cry like a girl, a journalist journal their transition with all the stereotypes they could think of, including breasts bouncing boobily as they went down stairs and how they really loved it, really loved it. I am sure there will be many other examples, but I don't want to get deleted.

Of course, there are examples of people who don't resort to gender stereotypes.

So pumpkinspicewoman, maybe you can provide us with the wealth of evidence to the contrary. I certainly look forward to it.

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

Perhaps because it's written into the DSM as the definition of gender dysphoria https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

PumpkinSpiceWoman - I haven't seen any definition of what it means to be trans without relying on gender stereotypes or it being circular ("a woman is someone that feels like a woman") - IMO gender relies on stereotypes - what else is there to explain what it is?

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?
So a TW who looks male, has a male body, does not "perform" any female-gendered behaviour and has no dysmorphia can still be a TW? What exactly makes that person trans because I don't understand?

Which nicely underlines our point. For TRAs , being gender non-conforming is special: it's queer, it's trans, it's non binary.
Yes. It absolutely needs "gender conformists" to work - and lots of activists like to conflate gender conforming with being right-wing, conservative and bigoted. So non-conforming gets to seem like the good guy.