Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

I personally don't actually GAF who uses which toilets. As long as they don't piss on the floor/seat. But I have friends who cannot use mixed sex toilets for religious reasons. And one friend who was brutally raped and wouldn't want to use mixed sex facilities. So for those women I am against mixed sex toilets.

I don't play sports, and hopefully won't ever go to prison. But I am against transwomen being on women's teams/in women's prisons because... other women.

As a CSA survivor I am against mixed sex open changing rooms. I don't want to have penises in spaces where I'm not expecting them. I am horrified by the casual acceptance of boys into the guiding movement. Partly because my abuser would have self identified himself into guides/rangers just to prove he had more 'power' than me.

@Cwenthryth

And what is ‘trans’, so I know I’m not it?

I’m not sure if this covers every single possible case, but broadly, a person is trans if they were registered as male at birth but now identify as a woman or girl (or non-binary, depending on whether this is the broader or narrower meaning of trans) or if they were registered as female at birth but now identify as a man or boy (or non-binary)

Well that's a pointless exercise, given they could all be males. See how this works?

I should clarify - as far as I’m aware, none of the lesbians I know is trans.

Given it's the law, and given you're a lawyer, that's a very odd stance to take. I wouldn't have thought that disagreement with the law is generally thought of as a good opening gambit in court.

I’m not aware of any case law on the precise meaning of ‘sex’ in the definition of sexual orientation in the Equality Act, and how the sexual orientation of a person who is attracted to both trans and non-trans women would be regarded - and that’s probably because it doesn’t actually matter, as a person will be protected from discrimination regardless of whether it’s your definition or mine.

Anyway, given that a trans woman who has a gender recognition certificate is regarded as being of the female sex for all legal purposes, presumably a non-trans woman who is attracted to non-trans women plus trans women who have a GRC, would be considered a person who is only attracted to people of the same sex, for the purposes of the Equality Act?

So in your world women’s spaces include men, which means some women (women who’ve been on the receiving end of violence from men, religious women, women who simply don’t want to undress in front of men) self select out of those spaces, whereas the men have two spaces to choose from. And you think that’s morally the right thing to do, do you?

‘Cis’ just means ‘not trans’, as far as I’m concerned.

It's not a term I accept as a label for me as a woman who is not an FTM trans person. Courtesy, Helen. Acceptance without exception.

See how this works?

I’ll do a straw poll of the lesbians I know

Wouldn't really be a representative sample, would it? If I did one, it would come out very differently, I imagine.

‘Cis’ just means ‘not trans’, as far as I’m concerned.

The world lesbian has been taken. It means a woman who is same-sex attracted.

A woman who is attracted to a transwoman is heterosexual, or bisexual. If you want to find another word, that incorporates the trans aspect, go ahead. It's not lesbian.

Lesbian is taken. It's not a word, or a concept that is designed to validate the male sex.

And as a sexual orientation, it is protected by law.

This. Helen, being a legal expert, should understand this. The EA definition:

This section defines the protected characteristic of sexual orientation as being a person’s sexual orientation towards:
• people of the same sex as him or her (in other words the person is a gay man or a lesbian)
• people of the opposite sex from him or her (the person is heterosexual)
• people of both sexes (the person is bisexual).

It also explains that references to people sharing a sexual orientation mean that they are of the same sexual orientation.

You can have whatever fringe definition for commonly understood words you like, Helen. You can call chairs tables, or whatever, obviously

I’ll do a straw poll of the lesbians I know and get back to you on this.

Not just "don't like" it. Don't identify with it or believe in the belief system it rests on. Please afford women who are not "cis" the courtesy you would to a trans person and refrain from labelling us in a way we reject, Helen. That would be civil.

Word.

I find the term 'cis' highly offensive. Actually.

Ok, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the meaning of ‘lesbian’ then.

You can have whatever fringe definition for commonly understood words you like, Helen. You can call chairs tables, or whatever, obviously.

I agree that many non-trans women (sorry, I realise I said ‘cis’ quite a lot in my previous post and many people here don’t like that term)

Not just "don't like" it. Don't identify with it or believe in the belief system it rests on. Please afford women who are not "cis" the courtesy you would to a trans person and refrain from labelling us in a way we reject, Helen. That would be civil.

Just women is fine. "Non trans" if you must, but it's a tautology if you're speaking about female people.

Ok, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the meaning of ‘lesbian’ then.

Helen, I think you know exactly what a support person means and I think you must have very little empathy for women, I really don’t see why women should compromise, men want to enter our same sex spaces and we say no, and we keep saying no.

They’re not just your spaces, they’re also the spaces of people like me who feel very differently to you.

It's still no.

A cis gender woman who considers herself a lesbian might be attracted only to other cis gender women, or also sometimes to trans men, or also sometimes to trans women.

No

They would be bi-sexual being both attracted to people of the male and female sex

@NiceGerbil

How many transwomen, having grown up male, really understand how women are treated?

I have seen a fair bit of stuff about poor treatment by the public etc that sounds like day to day normality tbh.

Stuff like being verbally abused, mocked. Feeling vulnerable, being threatened, being attacked.

I'll never forget the plea for money to get transwomen cabs home at night. It said, can you imagine what it feels like to feel unsafe walking home at night? Squillions of women said. Yes, of course! Are you serious?

I agree that many non-trans women (sorry, I realise I said ‘cis’ quite a lot in my previous post and many people here don’t like that term) are likely to share certain experiences that those who didn’t grow up female are much less likely to have experienced. But there is also a vast range of difference experiences among non-trans women.

Why do we need one universal definition of ‘lesbian’ that everyone agrees on?

The world lesbian has been taken. It means a woman who is same-sex attracted.

A woman who is attracted to a transwoman is heterosexual, or bisexual. If you want to find another word, that incorporates the trans aspect, go ahead. It's not lesbian.

Lesbian is taken. It's not a word, or a concept that is designed to validate the male sex.

And as a sexual orientation, it is protected by law.

Why do we need one universal definition of ‘lesbian’ that everyone agrees on?

Because that's how words work.

There are lots of other words that can be used for females who are not exclusively attracted to females.

Helen, I think you know exactly what a support person means and I think you must have very little empathy for women, I really don’t see why women should compromise, men want to enter our same sex spaces and we say no, and we keep saying no.

I entirely agree that I’m not a support human for men (whatever that might mean).

‘No compromise’ is not a stance that’s going to get any of us anywhere, I’m afraid.