Induction

@NonnyMouse1337 thanks for responding. Baby woke up and I eventually went to sleep. Just had a really rubbish time ATM.

I'm feeling really sad about my prom and outcomes for baby tonight. Just wondering if anyone is awake for a handhold. 😪

[quote MrsJuliaGulia]@KM38
I had lots of reasons. Pain relief was a big one and not being in control of it, I would be very much subject to the luck of the draw on the day depending on whether an anaesthetist happened to be available.
As was the fact that I figured a vaginal birth was more likely to go wrong than an elective c section. I know every surgery has risks involved but I was happy to take the risk, whether it’s correct or not but that was my perception.
I certainly didn’t want to risk an emergency c section which might have been likely given that I have a tilted pelvis (found this out afterwards).
I also didn’t want to go overdue and have to be induced.
I just found the idea of vaginal childbirth a bit hellish (too much OBEM?) and didn’t fancy it at all.
I think every woman should be able to make that choice for herself. As such a woman who wants to give birth at home with zero pain relief.
But for most women, especially those who aren’t maybe as sharp elbowed as I am, the choice isn’t really offered.[/quote]
Thanks for replying @MrsJuliaGulia 😊 I absolutely agree with you - every woman should be able to make that choice for themselves 😊
Your choices are definitely not the same as what mine were for my own labour and delivery. I hoped for a vaginal birth with as few interventions and as little pain relief as possible (because my body doesn’t react well to pain relief - not because I was trying to be some kind of hero lol. I had abdominal surgery about 7 years ago and also opted for no pain relief after the anaesthetic due to the adverse effects I experience). I ended up being induced at 39+5 so did have hormone drip etc but was thankful to manage on gas and air despite a senior midwife trying to demand that I “must” have an epidural to be allowed to proceed (I was already part was through the induction process)!!
I really respect the fact that you made your choices and advocated for yourself. I think it’s something that more people need to feel confident doing! Some of the medical professionals can be extremely pushy!

And on a side note - OBEM should be banned 😅🤣 I’m just as bad for watching it but I think it should come with a warning that straight forward pregnancies and births don’t make good tv so they’ve picked and edited some highly dramatised cases 🙈

It would have been pretty unlikely to be able to make much use of hynobirthing techniques during a botched hypertonic induction/precipitate labour with cord compression. (In fact the most incompetent midwife kept asking me why I couldn't "do my breathing exercises". I was at that point having one constant contraction with no breaks in between, and experiencing involuntary pushing that they couldn't stop!)

@KM38
I had lots of reasons. Pain relief was a big one and not being in control of it, I would be very much subject to the luck of the draw on the day depending on whether an anaesthetist happened to be available.
As was the fact that I figured a vaginal birth was more likely to go wrong than an elective c section. I know every surgery has risks involved but I was happy to take the risk, whether it’s correct or not but that was my perception.
I certainly didn’t want to risk an emergency c section which might have been likely given that I have a tilted pelvis (found this out afterwards).
I also didn’t want to go overdue and have to be induced.
I just found the idea of vaginal childbirth a bit hellish (too much OBEM?) and didn’t fancy it at all.
I think every woman should be able to make that choice for herself. As such a woman who wants to give birth at home with zero pain relief.
But for most women, especially those who aren’t maybe as sharp elbowed as I am, the choice isn’t really offered.

Hypnobirthing may be used by some women in various types of births.

It isn’t MEANT to be used. It’s not proscribed. That’s all I mean. It would have done me no good whatever - I tried it and did not get on with it.

We also should be fully informed about the risks and potential complications.. do we all know how syntinocin (routinely given in induction and cesarean) acts in the body and affects mood (PND?), lactation, possible link to ADHD etc.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3947469/?fbclid=IwAR2JmxElCAYwD8ANUxArbhUUy4DEMTb3UcNylcyca7bs33qbyTz4oZA3Y_c

Still birth rates in the UK have not decreased significantly since the 1980's, nor has the rate of inductions changed significantly, however, the rate of cesareans has increased.

What would be good is to really understand where the risks are and to act on those.

There is a huge amount of research on this topic, despite people assuming there is not. There is one particular paper that concludes that cesarean rates above 15% do not improve outcomes for mothers or babies. Not all intervention is positive. But.. there is much that can be done to improve birth and much of that involved watchful waiting, undisturbed physiological births and a deeper understanding of the biomechanics of birth. Often the research looks at something that midwives know not to be the right question.. like a research paper i read which compared the outcomes for women who took an all 4s position during early labour to those who didn't. Those who work in the field know that if labour is progressing and mother and baby are comfortable, there is no need to dictate position and that instinctive positions are best, if things slow down or become intensely painful, there are biomechanics informed positions and movements that can help baby move and mother to release muscle tension and increase the diameter of the pelvis in different directions. Sometimes several of these interventions are necessary as the baby progresses through the pelvis. Despite lots of research on this, most women in the UK still give birth lying down and with their knees apart so the birth attendants can see the baby coming when in fact, biomechanically, on all fours or kneeling with the femur rotated inwards (kness closer together, heels out, makes more space at the base of the pelvis for the baby to pass through.

And when things get stuck, don't progress, become intense, we have things that can help, epidurals and cesareans, these are hugely important tools that we should use and should not with hold from women who need and want them.

but we must realise that as soon as we intervene, we disrupt the natural hormones in the body, artificially administered syntocinon cannot pass the blood brain barrier and there fore does not trigger the release of pain relieving endorphins and the hormones required for the milk ejection reflex so induction can indeed make labour more painful and can affect breastfeeding.

The question about. how many women and babies do we harm by induction or failure to intervene in long labours resulting in babies are born stressed to exhausted or medicated mothers where the perimaternal and perinatal reflexes and hormones are interrupted, to save the life of one still born baby.. that is not the right question, partly because we have not reduced the numbers of still births since the 1980's but it is how do we effectively and efficiently identifies those mothers and babies for whom those interventions are useful.

The evidence to support some of the increases in interventions is poor and the research to understand the negative impacts of interventions like artificial syntocinon is also poor. We need to get better at understanding the questions to ask and to really understand how we make birth better for mothers and babies.

Soap box!!

Ironically I had a fully medicalised birth but at my own request, elective c section. However I’d still argue that I had to lie through my teeth to get it. The fact is, most women don’t get a choice and aren’t made aware of the options.
I’d probably have had a vaginal birth except I know that the anaesthetist would probably have been “busy” when I needed her so I’d have had to plough through with only light pain relief. Because who cares if women are in pain eh? They’ll cope.
No way in hell was I going to risk it so I choose to go full medicalised. It was fantastic. It should be a choice for everyone. Not that I’m saying that it’s the right choice for everyone. But every women should be able to choose how they give birth and what pain relief they want without being fobbed off by what is still fundamentally a patriarchal institution.

@RaeRaeMama just to pick up on Hypnobirthing itself is something that is meant be used in all types of birth

Hypnobirthing was no use to me. How dare you proscribe what works for anyone else? Can’t you see how that comes across!?

@RaeRaeMama “ It's all well and good saying that we should ultimately always listen to the medical professionals,”

Literally nobody said this.

You heard about some deeply upsetting births on this thread - and PP have said clearly that NOBODY knows, because nobody can rewind time - what would have happened if things had been done differently. Every woman does the absolute best she can by her own body, her own birth. Everybody here wants more support for women, not to be steamrollered either by medical birth process or the “natural” crew.

I’m sorry your NHS trust didn’t make you feel listened to but clearly different NHS trusts do things differently (mine did), women and births are different. I see you have an issue with induction specifically - despite by your own account, not having had one. I just don’t understand what you are trying to achieve on this thread. Maybe there are too many inductions, I don’t know. It’s a balancing act because there are no “facts” out there waiting to be discovered, each birth is new.

A wise poster on a different thread on birth resolved the birth prep/it’s all luck debate something like this: “reading up and knowing your options can give you a better birth experience. But despite that, sometimes in birth things happen that are beyond your control.” It was very good. I will try to find it.

Perpetually I agree.

I think the idea of a birth plan is to give women who are going to give birth whatever happens, a sense of control.

I didn't have one. If I did it would have just said all the drugs please.

The breathing and music and whatnot. Is surely only the sort of thing a subsection of women are into.

And the info is biased.

Essentially I got.
Breathe etc.
Water birth? (If they have a pool).
Any pain relief past gas and air is a disaster.
Not going to mention sections.
Not going to mention what the aftermath is really like. The possible injuries. To not to hesitate seeing a doc etc.

How many births are that way?

My group out of 10 there were a couple of planned CS and about 4 emergencies.

Forewarned is forearmed. Why are women being treated like children with this?

BUT I was so traumatised and then left with a tiny human to care for I didn't have the energy to fight for recognition or change.

I'm still raging about it but by the time I was up to making a fuss it all seemed too late.

Like previous posters, I am exasperated by the lack of middle ground which seems to be available. You either throw yourself completely at the mercy of the medical experts/be a good girl and do as you're told. Or you go full hippy, natural and reject any intervention.

Yeah, I think you're bang on right there.

The problem with this topic is I think

There is no crystal ball. There is only retrospect.
The consequences when things go wrong can be as bad as they get.
There is so much misinformation, withheld information. Strongly held opinions which the people who have them can be really zealous about.
From women I know, the support for women after traumatic birth is non existent.
The approach to pain seems peculiar. For some it's almost a point of pride to have no pain relief. Many women struggle to get any.

And then there's the fact that women who have had bad experiences naturally focus on what in their opinion went wrong. And discussion feels very personal, incredibly personal. That's natural of course but it often means that any threads about childbirth descend into intractable positions and a lot of upset.

Meanwhile the service is still failing large numbers of women and more babies are dying than should be.

We need to bring our experiences of course. But focus on the service we get. The unnecessary deaths of mothers and/ or babies. In more than one hospital. That the level of women who have terrible experiences/ are traumatised/ have PTSD due to their experiences are unacceptable.

That whatever the ideas about giving birth 'properly', the point is to get the baby out safely and in my opinion with the least pain/ damage/ fear for the woman possible. Unless she really wants the pain etc.

All the stuff about giving birth without pain relief etc being very empowering. Yes I'm sure it is. However. The idea that women are somehow better for that is awful.

It's in the press all the time (too posh to push is that still a thing?) and on here when a woman is having an elective. There's loads of posters saying it costs resources, recovery is awful, the baby will miss out on vaginal bacteria etc. And even when it's pointed out that elective means planned and is usually for a medical reason... Still they go on.

The whole tone is women arguing with women. When it should be women pushing for better care.

I didn't mean for my post to sound quite so dismissive of all birth planning. I will make sure I am aware of all options, as I did before.

Like previous posters, I am exasperated by the lack of middle ground which seems to be available. You either throw yourself completely at the mercy of the medical experts/be a good girl and do as you're told. Or you go full hippy, natural and reject any intervention. I have looked at doulas and find it very hard to find anyone impartial/not signed up to some kind of dogma.

I didn't realise until after my birth just how infantifilised I had been. I was told I had 'lost a lot of blood'. It took reading my own notes to see I had a PPH and a transfusion was being debated. And don't get me started on the 6 week check which didn't happen..... nobody has checked my episiotomy scar to this day! The after effects of my birth were so downplayed and under-medicalised, it took me a long time to realise just how ill I had been.

The hell? Oh fgs.. One size does not fit all. I want proper looking into differences in gestation for women from different backgrounds. Ways to monitor or somehow wait and see rather than what happens at the mo.

The outcomes from induction in terms of time labouring, intervention, emergency, CS and the resulting impact on the woman are rubbish aren't they?

I do understand what you're getting at Perpetually. I don't think it makes sense to plan your perfect birth and expect it to pan out that way. My approach to it was o be totally open to all suggestions, and I had some great MWs along the way.

But when I talk about improving the "experience" of induction, I'm slightly euphemistically meaning "not being alone and scared and in mind-crushing amounts of fucking agony with only a begrudgingly-given paracetamol for comfort".

I never understood the fuss about creating a nice calm atmosphere for birth. I thought that was for weirdy crystal-gazers. But then I experienced first hand how panic and adrenalin mess you up and work against you in labour. So for my second birth I hypnobirthed like fuck. And even though I did need some intervention and ended up in theatre, I was much calmer and felt in control and that helped it all go smoother.

I'm not against medicalised births at all. And childbirth will always be hard, no matter which way you do it. But I totally disagree that it is necessarily barbaric. Men would never put up with this crap.

Funny how it’s always those who haven’t had one, who don’t see the need for medicalised birth..... having a nice, natural delivery is sheer luck and nothing whatsoever to do with ‘preparation’. Can you honestly say that after hours/days of pain and lack of sleep, you would go against medical advice just because bloody Milli Hilli told you not to......?

I agree with the posters saying that post natal care is horrific but birth itself is just a lottery. I will be turning up next time with no expectations whatsoever. I certainly won’t be hoping for some twinkly light, intervention free ‘experience’ for myself. Childbirth is barbaric; you’ve just got to get through it. I say that as a committed feminist. I just don’t think the ‘experience’ seeking, all natural crew are doing a positive thing for women.

Was there much research to compare the different methods and environments for these inductions as that could make a lot of difference potentially in the experiences for the women. This side of induction doesn't seem to be focused on so much.

I had a typical induction that was long, uncomfortable and ended in an EMCS. If I go overdue if I get pregnant again I'll go for an elective CS and cut the fucking middleman out. Like other posters have pointed out, since they so highly end up in EMCS I don't see the fucking point. I had a 'good' induction because after 16 hours on the drip labour stalled and I was absolutely done in. I know other women that battled on resulting in very tough births.