What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.*

Absolutely spot on.

I understand why TW would not want to use the male toilets. I hope they can, in return, understand why women do not want them in the female toilets.it’s in no way casting aspersions on them or implying they have bad intentions.

Of course it's casting aspertions.

You say "women don't want them"... surveys have shown that the majority of women accept post op transsexuals and refuse self ID.

It is profoundly unfair to dismiss transsexuals by simply concluding its all just men, not our problem.

The law has been passed and whilst reform is needed I feel confident in saying that the chances of the Gov deciding that all transsexuals should now be legally declared men and use men's spaces is zero.

I am very much not unsympathetic but beither am I going to sacrifice myself because I am to be made responsible for my biological sex class.

On a daily basis I have had nothing but encouragement and support from women when using the toilets. From what I have seen women can generally spot a mile off who is a risk and who isn't. I remember a month into hormones a stranger asked me how I was getting on with them - she was able to tell somehow just by looking at me!

I can see you want to get back to the op so just one more comment please.

No, I'm sorry. Women are not a validation tool, that male born individuals can utilise to validate their ideas of what a woman is.

I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.

Anyway will leave it there as don’t want to derail.

How can anyone reasonably disagree? A biological male does not stop being male because they have surgery to their penis. The disagreement is surely in the extent to which we consider them to have women's rights, not that they actually are in every way the same as a biological female!

How on earth did we get to this!

There is a currently a gender GP clip of a five-year-old child 'coming out' as trans. And the parents saying she enjoys climbing trees and doesn't want to wear dresses, so she must be a boy.

This damaging, sexist stereotyping must stop.

Women are adult human females. That's it. That's the criteria.

There is no reward or punishment system attached to it!

None of the good men are responsible for what bad men do either, no one is suggesting they are.

Let's get away from toilets.

Let's talk about dormitories. Where I'm supposed to relax and sleep.

Discuss.

That is a massive cost for a minority, and to force them into disabled is unfair on disabled people who need to access it..For the small minority of trans people, letting them do their business and taking action against anyone who misbehaves is the way forward - and has been operating in that way for the last 11 years with very few incidents. Trans people are just not interested in anything in the bathroom then others also wish to do. Men just dont pretend to be trans to go into the toilets and offend! It would be easier to pretend to be a cleaner

Mishy, I agree disabled loos should be kept for the disabled. Yes, third spaces would cost money, but would provide a good answer that is fair to all.

It’s not as simple as ‘trans people just doing their business and leave them to it’, some women will have religious reasons to want single sex, some women will be victims of assault, some will simply want a single sex space for privacy and dignity. Regarding male cleaners in female toilets, they always put a sign up so women are aware, so I don’t think it’s comparable.

If we were to follow your suggestion about leaving people enter and then just take action against anyone who misbehaves, why couldn’t we apply that to all people of the male sex? My male relatives are lovely - why shouldn’t they use the female toilets? Well, the answer to that is that other women don’t know them and don’t know they’re lovely. Even my friends who do know them and know they’re lovely might not want to share a toilet with them for reasons of privacy and dignity. I wouldn’t take that as them casting aspersions on my male family members.

I understand why TW would not want to use the male toilets. I hope they can, in return, understand why women do not want them in the female toilets.it’s in no way casting aspersions on them or implying they have bad intentions. The simple fact is many women wish to keep their toilets single sex no matter how decent or nice the male people and TW are.

As we've already established there's no obvious way to distinguish between the different types of transsexual and transgender people who were born male, whether they hold a GRC or not.

Even if I accept that, it doesn't make the solution to revoke all transsexual rights.

I am not responsible for what men do. Why should I be punished for it?

Women are not merely men without penises. What a ridiculous and offensive notion.

As we've already established there's no obvious way to distinguish between the different types of transsexual and transgender people who were born male, whether they hold a GRC or not.

Is a soldier who tragically lost his penis in a bomb explosion not a man?

Ridiculous argument.

It denies dysphoria, dysmorphia and endocronological changes during transition

Oh and gender reassignment is not a mere absence of a penis.

A few years ago, you're probably right. Women would have tried to be accommodating to transexuals. Women would have tried to be understanding and sympathetic.

Since then, there has been an utter onslaught of "No Debate!" "TERF!" "Bigot" and worse thrown at women.

We've had the likes of Jessica Yaniv, Rachel McKinnon, Shon Faye, Danielle Muscato, Lily Madigan... I could go on!... all sneering that they can go into our spaces, do what they hell they like and there's nothing we can do about it.

We've seen the clips of men identifying as women prancing and dancing - and worse! - in the ladies toilets, belying the claim that "we just want to pee".

We have seen women and children intimidated and assaulted by men and trans women in women's spaces. There are documented media reports of these that you can find easily enough through google or by looking back on these boards.

All that has helped to harden our hearts and decide that no, sorry: we'd really rather these people stayed well away from our spaces because we can't be sure who and what they are. We have seen what too many of them are and we don't like it at all.

I think this is what Debbie Hayton and India Willoughby meant when they said that TRAs had made things so much worse for them. They're right.
If you want things back they way they were, then you'll need to try and undo the damage these people have done. How do you propose to do that? I'm not sure you can. They've wrecked things for you. So probably your best option is 3rd spaces.

I do not think a woman is the same as a man who’s had surgery to his genitals, I do not think I’m alone in this.

I'm sure youre not but plenty disagree.

So yes, we can agree to disagree.

Is a soldier who tragically lost his penis in a bomb explosion not a man?

Women already have a definition, for goodness sake.

Here is a fact sheet, op, from FairPlay for Women briefly outlining how the single sex exceptions operate.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/EA2010_womensrights_-factsheet.pdf

And here is where they specifically address toilets.

fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

We will have to agree to disagree on that then.

I do not think a woman is the same as a man who’s had surgery to his genitals, I do not think I’m alone in this.

"You don't think a lack of penis is somewhat of a difference?"

The trouble is, BlueLipstickRocks, as the TRAs are so fond of throwing back at us:
"Are we really going to check the contents of everyone's underpants??"

A transsexual is no different to any man when we are discussing single SEX spaces

You are entitled to hold that opinion but I profoundly disagree.

You don't think a lack of penis is somewhat of a difference?

Surely the equality act and GRC are clear on this. It is just Stonewall law that is confused and the companies they have been advising.

The current law, allows people with a GRC into single sex spaces, unless specifically excluded because it is a proportional means to achieve a legitimate aim. So people with a GRC can access the toilets of their legal sex..

It is not practical to ask for ID, but you can make it clear for whom it is and is not legal. If someone male enters without a GRC they have no right to be there.

It is legal for a transexual or transgender woman with a GRC to access female toilets.

It is not legal for a transexual or transgender woman with a GRC to apply for a job at a rape crisis center from which she had been specifically excluded.

It would not be legal for a transexual woman or a transgender woman without a GRC to access any female spaces (or at least it is not discriminatory to deny them access)

It is not legal for anyone who still has the legal sex of male to use female toilets or indeed any single sex services.

I am not sure if there is a requirement to provide single sex toilets though if they do, the law seems fairly clear. Legally male people are not allowed to access them. That is the social contract. It can't ever be more than a social contract anyway.

Anyway back to the op. You are quite right, op, currently it's down to the service provider to balance the competing rights under the equality act.
I anticipate that will certainly change in terms of prisons and sport.

In other areas, the more women who are disadvantaged and say they can't use the service, the easier it is to determine the extent of the discrimination. Especially if an alternative service is offered. The phrase a proportionate means to a legitimate end is, to me, quite easy to justify.

It's not written anywhere that women need to be present in order to validate the feelings of the opposite sex. Alternative provision is the key.

I think the original discussion is very interesting, instructive and would really like hear what knowledgeable people have to say about it. I suspect we have gone down a burrow, so we need to pop back up. We may never be able to read those really interesting and informative posts.

I really want to know what right to a single sex space I have, and how!

It's extraordinary how many people think women's role is to do this. That we are genuinely here to provide a service that disadvantages us.

We're not. We are over half the electorate and the days of NoDebate are over.

The phrase is offensive because it clearly decides that a transsexual is no different to any man.

No, because not "any man" has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and a GRC. That differentiates biologically male transsexuals from other biological males.

So politely asking for a phrase not to be used that causes offense to be us compeling speech?

If I politely decline for the reasons I and others have laid out, that's ok then? Great.