What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

It is quite amazing how the criteria changes depending on who you're talking to.

Surgery, GRC certificates, longevity, passing, vulnerability.

All of these have been used to ride roughshod over women's access to their own spaces.

I agree.

I'm not comfortable with this and dont think anyone should have to confirm their pre or post op status for the benefit of anyone else.

I'm sorry Blue that your 'psychological disorders', as you term them (I'd agree, but suspect that's deletable phrasing, so to be clear I'm directly quoting you) have caused you such distress throughout your life.

But being psychologically distressed doesn't give any male the moral right to access female single sex spaces.

You continuously evade discussion of third spaces, despite saying that you'd prefer unisex ones anyway - which many women here are very willing to support as additional provision.

You are not female. Your entire argument is basically 'I belong to a particular subset of male people who i feel are entitled to demand access to your female spaces. Not those male people - let's all get together & say no to them! But you can't say no to me.'

It's forced teaming. & it's a hard no from me.

It is not just transexuals who are considered to be protected by gender reassignment. It is anyone who says their gender identity is different from their actual sex. There is no need to modify your body in any way and as many do not suffer from dysphoria no changes are made. So the point remains, how do we accommodate the tiny percentage of transsexuals whilst still not opening the doors to any male person who might decide to say they are a woman?

How can we possibly discuss this topic if we have to tip toe around the facts? A transwoman is a man, not a woman, not a non-male, not a ‘not-a-man-anymore’ - whatever surgery and hormones you’ve had, whatever diagnosis, no matter how genuinely or seriously you believe yourself to be a woman you are still a man and always will be.

And you are entitled to that opinion.

Then could you please refrain from misrepresenting what I and others say? I have sympathy for your position and support third spaces. I don't think your issues are irrelevant, they're just not my priority here.

Why should I be forced into male spaces because of it?

Because you are male.

Transsexualism doesn't make men women. You may feel you are not like other men. Fair enough. But you are not a woman. It is not our role to treat your dysphoria at the expense if our dignity, privacy or safety, our mental health, or at the expense of our sports.

She didn't say it was irrelevant. Stop reading stuff into women's words which isn't there, just because we think female only spaces should be female onlly

And you are entitled to that opinion.

She didn't say it was irrelevant. Stop reading stuff into women's words which isn't there, just because we think female only spaces should be female only.

You seem to think your dysphoria trumps everything else but it doesn’t, you can’t control other people’s thoughts and feelings, some women will have to self select out of things if transsexuals are in those spaces, why should any woman be forced out because of your dysphoria?

Why should I be forced into male spaces because of it?

I have never said it trumps anything. Why are you saying its irrelevant?

You really expect someone to go through reassignment surgery and still use the mens?

People have suggested third spaces. As you know.

Once again its seen as transsexuals as just another type of man.

Not what I said, but if you are determined to put words into my mouth, have at it.

hard disagree from me on this one

Me too. I don't consider enabling the dismantling of women's sex based rights "the moral thing to do" and I don't appreciate having it dictated to me what I should think about issues which concern me and those sex based rights.

You seem to think your dysphoria trumps everything else but it doesn’t, you can’t control other people’s thoughts and feelings, some women will have to self select out of things if transsexuals are in those spaces, why should any woman be forced out because of your dysphoria?

the morally right thing is for men to never, ever claim to be or try to pass themselves off as women

Its called Transsexualism. Its called Gender Identity Disorder. Both psychological disorders. These are not choices. You think I wanted to pursue a dangerous medical process? You think I had major surgery for fun?

So the morally right thing for me to do is to not have a psychological disorder?

Thats ridiculous.

*I'm not really that interested in whether someone has a GRC or has had surgery, to be perfectly honest. I don't make the same distinctions as others. As I said, I don't support the idea of a group of male people, however small, accessing female only space.

I value the consideration of male people who have respect for women and girls in not using female only space, even when they probably could override my lack of consent. I am not alone in this need for female only space, it's a feeling shared by very many women.*

Once again its seen as transsexuals as just another type of man.

Transsexuals undertake a long and dangerous medical pathway to deal with dysphoria and dysmorohia. It's not about consideration to avoid a female space - to suggest such a thing shows a profound lack of knowledge over what it means to be transsexual. You really expect someone to go through reassignment surgery and still use the mens? If I was capable of doing some of the things you expect me to do then I would have needed to transition and by extension would be transsexual.

One of the big issues here is this unwillingness to consider that whilst transsexuals were indeed male born that doesn't mean its appropriate to attach the typical male gender stereotypes to them.

Being transsexual is not an identity - it's a diagnosis. In what other condition is it OK to constantly ensure someone is reminded of the thing that caused intense distress and severe impairment?

Everyone here is entitled to an opinion. Not everyone agrees. Is it really necessary though to constantly refer to a transsexual as a man? You can believe it all you like - it doesn't mean it doesn't cause offense and distress to use such language.

What's it it for you is that it's morally the right thing to do. hard disagree from me on this one, the morally right thing is for men to never, ever claim to be or try to pass themselves off as women, the group they’ve been oppressing for centuries. If you want to wear female style clothing, have a feminine name or hairstyle then more power to you, but try to use the law to enforce the lie that you’re a woman? No. Just no.

It is not inly about safety. It is about privacy and dignity too. I am getting increasingly fed up with the almost exclusive focus on safety. It is a very male perspective; if they are not raping you, what is the problem?

Yes, me too. This is 99% about the feelings, therapeutic goals and validation of males, and women's feelings and emotional wellbeing seemingly don't count, do they?

Women might have a valid objection on the grounds of safety risk, but silly women, it's such a small risk we can handwave it away without even offering any reassurance by saying it's not enough reason to derail the glorious trans rights agenda.

The tell for me personally, is that anyone who is demanding to get in my space against my will, is already raising a red flag. For me, personally.

Exactly this. That sense of entitlement is enough to keep him out.