What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

I agree Floisme. And the most vociferous voices are men.

The trans lobby saying that trans people aren't safe (from men) - why is it the answer to make women share their space (with men)? Why is it always women who have to "be nice" " be kind" or give up their hard fought rights? I'm sick of being called a terf just because I want to be safe. I want my own spaces. I don't want trans people to be unsafe, or prejudiced or unequal. The answer is surely a third space.

Yes, I think it beggars belief how men, as a class, have been allowed to abdicate responsibility and pass it on to women.

@Helleofabore yes there is a problem with the misdirection I think of the vulnerabilities of trans - based on extreme rhetoric towards women. When the vast majority of harassment and danger to trans women comes from men.

I heard a trans woman on the radio recently, talking about the awful abuse and harassment she’d suffered. They had written a book I think? Don’t remember the name. I was very sympathetic until right at the end they started ranting on about how so much of that abuse had happened in toilets and yet how awful it was that women wanted to keep them out of toilets…

I just thought… hey?! So men harassed you and abused you… which is awful… and yet it is women who are to blame and deserve the anger and woman who are discriminating? Something very wrong there. That trans woman was vulnerable, but to men, not women.

I guess it might be really powerful if trans women who had had surgery, stood up to trans woman who haven’t.

Yes third spaces are the way forward.

Thanks Hellebore.
I do wish people would put their weight behind it as I do think a genuine need had been identified.
It also annoys me when trans is positioned as 'most vulnerable group ever' as that ignores the many, many vulnerable males who have to navigate toxic masculinity and male spaces. The neuro divergent, those with learning difficulties, sexual orientation. Etc.
But their vulnerability lacks glamour.

Sorry that was in response to avocados request to back up the claim that a fair number of people are rejected. (It could have changed significantly since the last year provided though, bit sinister that yearly information, freely provided suddenly stops)

For some reason I can't open the PDF at the moment but
www.gov.uk/government/collections/gender-recognition-certificate-statistics

Nothing more recent than 2014 but has comprehensive info about GRCs and tribunals broken down by sex, refusals and deferments(which I expect is spousal veto for married late transitioners). If I recall it was about 10% of applicants were turned down. But I can't confirm at the mo as I can't open it.

mousey

From a purely selfish point of view as well I am really behind third spaces. DS disability is likely to be in the mild camp, it doesn't fully 'settle' until.2. I could see third spaces being important in establishing his independence as I would be able to accompany him a little longer to develop his confidence and skills. I'd also feel he wouldn't be as vulnerable surrounded by families and a gender mix. If (as I hope) his disability proves my 'mild' enough then he may get judged on using disabled facilities, as it would be an invisible disability but he'd still benefit from things like a handrail next to the toilet.
Trans is just another reason to add to why we need third spaces in public, there is a need for them.

I think it must be quite a challenge to realise that women who seemed to be agreeing with you in the past may well have been simply being nice while hiding what they really felt. Or were at the time, like me, not thinking of the ramifications to others because I had never noticed the more vulnerable people or those who simply needed the privacy of a single sex space.

It was when I stopped working in corporations, and had to deal with an infant and an ageing mother that I realised that I, in my lack of exposure, had not thought of other people's needs in as much depth as I should have. I would have willingly, to be 'liberal', given away the rights of other women to be nice to males.

Raising awareness is very important. And also, the fact that so many children are being taught gender ideology.

More people are definitely becoming aware, because it is actually affecting them, it's not just a thought experiment.

And yes, I wonder what will happen in the Olympics.

This is very true avocadowoman.

I must admit I previously would have been among them.
Which is why discourse is so important, it was only after JK's essay that I even considered it to be harmful to vulnerable women.
And the reason I looked into it was because on every other subject she's absolutely liberal in the position she takes.
Still, I didn't decide on my position till I'd researched it myself as well. I think a lot of the time it's just a lack of awareness, and that's because identity politics means people often automatically take a position without considering it themselves.
And some of the time it's privilege with a lack of empathy.
And some of the time it's self preservation.
On the whole I think women as a class are only now becoming aware. The Olympics will be a real moment in time for obvious reasons.

Yes indeed. I'm also not without sympathy, which I can have at exactly the same time as recognising entitlement when I see it.

I honestly don't think that certain people realise that they genuinely think women are supposed to be support humans. I know we use the term support humans, or service humans, but that is actually how women are viewed by an extraordinary number of people.

For so long they have simply expected women to accommodate them, it genuinely doesn't compute when they stop.

It's quite obvious in that when women say no, that's not enough. Women aren't supposed to say no. It's certainly not a sufficient reason. they must be persuaded, told, and in many cases, threatened.

'No' isn't heard.

I do too Eresh.

And it has been said on other threads, it is not women’s fault that third spaces were never created, it is not women’s fault that male’s told other males it was right to enter into women’s single sex spaces.

It is now not up to women to fix the issue.

I have sympathy too, and I advocate third spaces.

I guess I just do have sympathy for the very small number of men who have gone through extensive surgery, and now have any man who wants to call himself Mary hustle in. That group are pretty vulnerable (those who have gone through surgery).

I get the arguments for keeping single sex spaces, and that women are not human shields. I just think this is one huge mess by a strange experiment of ‘there is no such thing as biological sex’ group - the trans lobby.

A transwoman passing as a cis woman entering the male bathrooms is not going to go well, perhaps less so if they don't quite "pass".

The answer the entire time was to educate the males that you all come in many forms. It was NEVER the answer for single sex spaces to be given to others. Not for safety, not for any reason.

It is really enlightening to see the lack of respect for women who say no.

It is really enlightening to see posters who when asked about the women who are being excluded, resort to 'what about me!'.

Safety mostly. A transwoman passing as a cis woman entering the male bathrooms is not going to go well, perhaps less so if they don't quite "pass". Equally, a transman entering the women's toilets. It's the open prejudice displayed on these boards that makes trans people's lives super tough. Who would want to be trans by choice?

Do you know what makes women’s lives super tough? Being sexually assaulted in the street and being told it’s “just one of those things”, the open hostility from men and even other women when we do things we’re entitled to like take maternity leave and breastfeed in public, not having any public changing areas we can be certain we can undress in without some privileged class of males barging into and we can’t even ask them to leave or they’ll try to get us sacked from our jobs.