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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If an abuser is on trial and claims to have transitioned.....

56 replies

FloppyHoldsNoTruckWithFrontedA · 13/06/2021 08:23

What is the position in terms of whether victim has to refer to sais attacker as “she”?
Current position &Uk.

OP posts:
JellySlice · 13/06/2021 10:50

What do courts do about defendants who have changed their names (irrespective of gender identity)? Are witnesses or victims instructed which name to use when referring to them? Are witnesses and victims forbidden from using the name by which they knew the defendant at the time of the crime?

Thelnebriati · 13/06/2021 10:47

It would be perjury imo. Systems that mimic the original abuse can't deliver justice and are not fit for purpose.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 13/06/2021 10:46

The ETBB misstates the law

conservativesforwomen.org/the-judicial-college-is-captured-by-gender-ideology

HollowTalk · 13/06/2021 10:44

It's just the court giving yet more power and control to rapists and abusers.

newnortherner111 · 13/06/2021 10:42

I cannot help, only thing to say is that I hope the victim sees justice done.

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 10:39

Neat way for the rapist to play victim in court and turn the victim of the crime into the bad person who is hurting their feelings every time she slips and says "his" penis, not "her" penis.

It feels like an opportunity for the abuser to stretch the opportunity of abusing to the very limits. Aided by the legal system. For what, in law, is only a male crime. Makes me feel quite sick tbh that the traumatised actual victim is forced through this abusive charade for the benefit and gratification of the perpetrator.

FloppyHoldsNoTruckWithFrontedA · 13/06/2021 10:38

Will keep this going as and when I can between work commitments.

It’s very important that the person who asked me gets an accurate and measured reply.

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NewlyGranny · 13/06/2021 10:32

But perhaps the Forstater tribunal judgement has put an end to this nonsense for the victim and witnesses? I sincerely hope so.

NewlyGranny · 13/06/2021 10:30

Neat way for the rapist to play victim in court and turn the victim of the crime into the bad person who is hurting their feelings every time she slips and says "his" penis, not "her" penis.

This has happened. Poor rapist. Never mind, off you go to mix with the already traumatised women in the women's prison, where you belong.

Have fun!

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 10:25

Hhhm I need Rowantrees.
I’m reinventing the wheel here.

Yes

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 10:24

Found this.

www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-over-transgender-guidance-to-judges/5103196.article

However, LGBT pressure group Stonewall said: ‘The language we use is hugely significant, especially when it comes to trans communities who face high levels of harassment and abuse in their daily lives. Using a trans person’s correct name and pronoun is as important as it is for anyone else. This helps ensure trans people are respected and accepted for who they are.’

The Judicial College declined to identify the external experts and organisations that assist in training and formulation of policy. ‘It is not necessary or in the public interest to make public the names of all those involved in this work,’ it said.

Looks like another area that requires transparency and challenging.

FloppyHoldsNoTruckWithFrontedA · 13/06/2021 10:24

Hhhm I need Rowantrees.
I’m reinventing the wheel here.

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FloppyHoldsNoTruckWithFrontedA · 13/06/2021 10:19

Found it.
I’m reading Chapter 12.
It’s concerning: “gender assigned at birth”.
Haven’t spotted “cis” yet.

Has this been supplied by Stonewall? Do we know?

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IvyTwines2 · 13/06/2021 09:50

Surely calling a male person by a female pronoun and name would subtly influence the jury, especially if the crime was sexual? They might come to think by having to use these terms the defendant was not sexually attracted to women or is somehow softer and more feminine (we are the sex constantly told to 'be kind') and thus less likely to have committed the crime.

FloppyHoldsNoTruckWithFrontedA · 13/06/2021 09:46

trying to find the passage within the bench guide and on my iPad I can’t search.
Would anyone be kind enough to identify the section?

Appreciate this.

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FloppyHoldsNoTruckWithFrontedA · 13/06/2021 09:38

Thanks nauticant, I will pass this to the person who asked.

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nauticant · 13/06/2021 08:57

My assumption has always been that the guidance on pronoun use is for officers of the court and this has become broadened to encompass everyone including witnesses. The fact that this interpretation is being maintained when it will be clear to all concerned that this is wrong is telling.

PaleGreenGhost · 13/06/2021 08:57

I wonder if it would help to start by explaining that when you say "he" you are referring to the attacker's sex, and not their gender ID. That you accept their gender ID may not match their sex, but for the purpose of the trial you believe sex to be important. Especially in the context of a typically male-pattern crime committed by a male against a female where the sex of the victim was not accidental (ie sexual assault & /or because women are less likely to able to fight back). This is where misogyny being a hate crime might have helped.

NotBadConsidering · 13/06/2021 08:55

@teawamutu

Given that witnesses have to take an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - I have always wondered what would happen if one pointed out they were being asked to lie.
Yes, I have often wondered if you can be found in contempt by being expected to perjure yourself. If I’m ever unfortunate to be in this situation, I will ask this directly of the judge.
334bu · 13/06/2021 08:55

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/

It also skews data with Norway having a 300% increase in female sex offenders since self id.
The a above policy analysis group has done work in this and has a way for ordinary women to help with this on their website.
Also in Scotland it is still not clear whether a women victim might not be accused of a hate crime if she refuses to talk about her rapist as 'she'

MangoSeason · 13/06/2021 08:54

I would like to tell the judge that I refuse to perjure myself. I would like to refer to the attacker over and over again “that person sitting right there who assaulted me”. But in truth, I think I would be terrified and intimidated enough already and would do what the judge said, even though I would be furious with myself later.

HollowTalk · 13/06/2021 08:53

It just becomes ridiculous. Is she supposed to say, a male bodied person with a masculine name and a beard approached me. This is the person now named Julie who is standing opposite me in a dress?

EishetChayil · 13/06/2021 08:51

@teawamutu

Given that witnesses have to take an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - I have always wondered what would happen if one pointed out they were being asked to lie.

This is exactly what I would do.

teawamutu · 13/06/2021 08:50

Given that witnesses have to take an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - I have always wondered what would happen if one pointed out they were being asked to lie.

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 08:46

Certainly in previous cases it has been expected. But in light of recent events, I'm not sure the victim could or should be compelled to use language that doesn't fit in with their 'belief' (knowledge of facts is more appropriate). Particularly as this adds to the victims trauma. I wonder whether there has been some sort of takeover of language here actually, because it sounds entirely inappropriate to force the victim to do this.

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