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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you can't get your head around WTF "Gender Identity" is about, try this:

55 replies

Melroses · 12/06/2021 12:54

It is by The State Media who made another film last year.

I am trying it out on confused relatives.

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Shehasadiamondinthesky · 16/06/2021 06:28

FF's

DaisiesandButtercups · 16/06/2021 06:17

I believe the use of gender to describe cultural roles of the sexes imposed by society began to be used by some feminist academics in the 1970’s.

In the time of Jane Austen sex primarily meant male and female rather than the reproductive act so there was not that element of embarrassment around the word.

Sexual intercourse (communication between the two sexes) was a euphemism for physical intimacy which later stopped being a euphemism and became the most commonly used term for the reproductive act/physical intimacy.

In her book Male and Female published 1950, Margaret Mead refers to the sexes and sex. Gender was at that time used as a grammatical term in the study of language.

Melroses · 15/06/2021 23:29

When did we start using the term 'gender' instead of sex?

I don't know - the suffragettes seemed to know. I think it was probably post-war. Before that, gender was mostly about grammar.

Definitely in the 1970s, people were using it as a polite term for sex, as we were told to use "sex" in biology. Even social sciences were using sex. I can only remember gender being used in terms of roles and toys by academic types.

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Member869894 · 15/06/2021 22:52

its all very tiresome isnt it??

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 15/06/2021 22:37

When did we start using the term 'gender' instead of sex?

Just wondering as I read Sense and Sensibility recently and they use the word sex instead of gender - and this was written in the early 1800s.

Lockdownennui · 15/06/2021 22:25

@Thelnebriati

That starts off well but then descends into the usual mire a few paragraphs in. Its actually sex which is the socially constructed hierarchy. Gender roles are created to keep one sex in their place. Anything which is 'female' is automatically less than anything which is 'male'.
Sex is a biological reality, there's nothing socially constructed about it. I agree that gender roles are created to keep one sex in their place - gender is the constructive tool of the patriarchy, and is the application of socially-constructed roles to sex. Without gender, there's nothing hierarchical about sex (although there is obviously physical advantage).
CardinalLolzy · 15/06/2021 22:24

I've asked this before but don't think I've had a decent response: Is there anything that the word 'gender' means that isn't covered by '[cultural ideas of] masculinity and femininity'?

Thelnebriati · 15/06/2021 22:12

That starts off well but then descends into the usual mire a few paragraphs in.
Its actually sex which is the socially constructed hierarchy. Gender roles are created to keep one sex in their place. Anything which is 'female' is automatically less than anything which is 'male'.

Leafstamp · 15/06/2021 22:09

Sorry, here:

www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Leafstamp · 15/06/2021 22:07

@Member869894

Thank you Thelnebriati. That is helpful
The World Health Organisation says this:

’Gender identity refers to a person’s deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to the person’s physiology or designated sex at birth.’

And:
’ Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed.’

Further explanation here:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed.

CardinalLolzy · 15/06/2021 21:55

@Thelnebriati

Gender is a set of social expectations and rules that a culture decides is suitable for each sex. It is not based in biology and cannot be codified.
That's externally-imposed gender. But does that apply to what's commonly referred to as a gender identity? Is a gender identity of male/female just agreeing that those expectations/rules apply to you? What about the other genders?

Can anyone come up with a better definition then ?

We've been trying for years. We've asked people that use the term what they mean by it, particularly people that advocate for having laws and policies based on 'gender'. They don't answer except in a circular fashion that requires further definition ('your gender is whatever you feel your gender to be') etc.
One person did explain it as 'whether you feel 'he' or 'she' refers to you' but I don't find that satisfactory if you've been told throughout your life that 'he' or 'she' refers to, essentially, whether you have a male or female body.

Member869894 · 15/06/2021 21:40

Thank you Thelnebriati. That is helpful

Thelnebriati · 15/06/2021 21:20

Gender is a set of social expectations and rules that a culture decides is suitable for each sex.
It is not based in biology and cannot be codified.

Member869894 · 15/06/2021 21:12

Can anyone come up with a better definition then ? The definition as it is is utterly meaningless to me .

DaisiesandButtercups · 15/06/2021 19:06

How do we create a functional society based on the changeable, unverifiable, internal feelings of individuals?

Maybe it is better if we stick to unchanging, easily verifiable and externally evident sex rather than gender identity for organising sport, health, intimate spaces, prisons, refuges and so on?

I can’t think of any valid reason to separate anything along the lines of gender identity. Everything becomes mixed sex and women are back to square one and must begin the fight for our sex based rights all over again.

CardinalLolzy · 15/06/2021 18:47

'Gender identity is the gender that a person thinks he or she is'

And I see you have excluded non-binary people in your definition. I'm not scorning you, just wondering why you'd discriminate against them in this way?

CardinalLolzy · 15/06/2021 18:45

And how are you defining "gender", there, member? What if someone thinks their gender is male because they've been told "gender" is the same as sex or it's been inadequately defined to them?

JediGnot · 15/06/2021 18:31

'Gender identity is the gender that a person thinks he or she is'

This raises so many questions!

(1) Do you agree that this is fluid?

(2) When I say - as I am right now - that I am a transwoman, are you obliged to believe me, or do you have a right to challenge whether my words are truly what I believe? If you have the right to challenge then how can you possible determine whether I am being honest? If you don't have a right to challenge me then are you not giving a green light to liars to lie their way in female only spaces?
(3) What is gender other than bigoted, outdated, regressive, sex-based stereotypes?
(4) Why should society treat people based on their gender instead of their biological sex?
(5) Why can white people not identify as black? Or do you think they should be able to?
(6) Can disabled people identify and able-bodied? What about able-bodied as disabled?
(7) Can a person with a penis be a lesbian?

Member869894 · 15/06/2021 18:10

Do feel free to pour scorn on me and scoff though..

Member869894 · 15/06/2021 18:09

I've been away and have just come back to this. Are you seriously saying that the above is a helpful definition of gender identity?? I've read and reread it and am none the wiser. Happy to summarise it though or attempt to, as follows;
'Gender identity is the gender that a person thinks he or she is'

CatGardenDog · 14/06/2021 18:26

We’re still eagerly awaiting your words of wisdom member! Must be more difficult than you thought, eh?

Congressdingo · 14/06/2021 18:21

@Member869894

'Gender identity is the unmeasurable and shifting notion of what a person thinks they may feel at any specific moment in time about a fluid and changeable concept that either correlates with or denies their innate biological sex or alternatively corresponds with that persons estimation of their opposite sex predicated on their own personal perception of a stereotypical yet ultimately unknowable and reductive abstraction of an assumption of that sex for which they have no frame of reference to even begin to understand'

This is just ridiculously verbose and badly written

If you feel like coming up with a more concise version, please feel free.
Jux · 14/06/2021 16:58

Melroses, thanks for that video link, it's great. I saw I had already subscribed but they'd got lost somehow, so thanks for pointing me back to them.

FerretFumbler · 14/06/2021 16:42

The description is perfect.
A preposterous load of pretentious bollocks!

Melroses · 14/06/2021 14:26

They did make a shorter, more succinct version of the definition of gender identity, but I don't feel in conveys a great deal TBH. Smile

If you can't get your head around WTF "Gender Identity" is about, try this:
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