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Original poster

Would anyone mind if I ask a question about Robin Moria White?

244 replies

rabbitwoman · 11/06/2021 22:24

I am sure she won't mind because she used to come here often to plug her book as the definitive guide to trans law.

I just wondered if it might need considerable editing after yesterday? As it will now have to take into account the judgement in Maya Forstater 's case?

Just to add, I had not read a huge amount about Maya. I had read Robin's piece in the independent and thought that it seemed maya was transphobic, and had behaved in a dreadful way.

But I have read all about it in the past few weeks and read the whole judgement yesterday and it's taken my breath away that Robin has not been even reprimanded for what she wrote. Why not?

www.google.com/search?q=robin+moira+white+forstater&oq=robin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i60.2312j0j7&client=ms-android-vf-gb-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

OP posts:
horsespirit · 12/06/2021 22:53

I've read the section on gender critical beliefs. It aligns with what the judge said and the Unions said yesterday reminding us all that no one should manifest their beliefs in a discriminatory, harassing or intimidatory manner in the work place. This means trans people can't be misgendered.

RobinMoiraWhite · 12/06/2021 22:52

@TinselAngel

You would have to read it first. I think the OP was hoping the cut out the middle person and get a comment from the author.
We authors have a strange view that folk should buy a book rather than having it read to them for free. Old-fashioned, I know...
ArabellaScott · 12/06/2021 22:49

I used to work in law many years ago and even then books were not the go to resource for the very reason that they become out of date too quickly.

Yes, I can see that being the case. Especially when it's a contentious legal issue that's subject to various reviews, consultations, etc at time of writing. Bit pointless even trying, perhaps.

PearPickingPorky · 12/06/2021 22:46

A quote from Robin's first chapter which is available for free as a taster, I imagine:

There is still considerable scientific debate about how certain individuals exhibit gender dysphoria (ie distress about their assigned gender) or gender variance. There is some evidence that genetics play a part (it runs in families) and some evidence that nurture has an effect (likelihood of male to female trans child increases with mother’s number of previous male pregnancies). However, it arises, gender dysphoria / gender variance is very real to those who experience it.

Umm...

I hope the rest of the book is a few levels above this, given that Robin expects people to pay £30 to read it.

Leafstamp · 12/06/2021 22:44

*re-drafting

*fair to say

Apologies, it’s been a long day

Leafstamp · 12/06/2021 22:43

In answer to the OP, I guess we can’t be sure if the-drafting will be required but given that there is a chapter on Gender Critical Views, I think it’s fair to see that part will have a glaring omission now.

I used to work in law many years ago and even then books were not the go to resource for the very reason that they become out of date too quickly.

TinselAngel · 12/06/2021 22:32

You would have to read it first.
I think the OP was hoping the cut out the middle person and get a comment from the author.

Leafstamp · 12/06/2021 22:30

Here’s a sentence from that might get discussion going:

many trans people struggle to know when in a new relationship they should make their trans status plain to a potential partner.

RobinMoiraWhite · 12/06/2021 22:27

@WanderinWomb

I hope RMW's appearance in this thread doesn't stop discussion of the book especially in light of recent court results.

You wouldn't want your presence to stifle reviews (good or bad) would you Robin.

You would have to read it first. The comments above make abundantly clear that no-one commenting has read it, especially the relevant chapter. That would seem to be a bit of a handicap, IMHO.
WanderinWomb · 12/06/2021 22:20

I hope RMW's appearance in this thread doesn't stop discussion of the book especially in light of recent court results.

You wouldn't want your presence to stifle reviews (good or bad) would you Robin.

RobinMoiraWhite · 12/06/2021 22:07

@TinselAngel

Are we just answering questions with questions now?
Apparently.
TinselAngel · 12/06/2021 22:01

Are we just answering questions with questions now?

Leafstamp · 12/06/2021 22:00

@RobinMoiraWhite

So wonderful to have a whole thread on Mumsnet all to myself. True recognition!
Recognition as....?
nauticant · 12/06/2021 22:00

You do you Robin. Meanwhile the world moves on.

RobinMoiraWhite · 12/06/2021 21:58

@nauticant

How's the re-write going?
Have you read the present edition? It would appear not.
nauticant · 12/06/2021 21:49

How's the re-write going?

RobinMoiraWhite · 12/06/2021 21:46

So wonderful to have a whole thread on Mumsnet all to myself. True recognition!

Melroses · 12/06/2021 16:33

It's probably not you Brew

AvantGardening · 12/06/2021 16:24

@Melroses

It is worth watching the end of the evidence session for a bit of a finely tuned legal gotcha. Who knew.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/fb12feef-6d41-457a-a102-ea59813bb583

Q68 Robin Moira White: Absolutely. The definition in the Equality Act is that a woman is a female of any age and a man is a male of any age. Forgive me, Karon’s analysis is perfectly intellectually valid, but a different analysis—and we haven’t tried this through—is that all that those definitions do is say that a girl is a woman and a boy is a man. ELA’s view is that there is a complete lack of clarity about that in the Act, so working out who is in which sex for the purposes of the Act is still something that needs to be clarified either in terms of litigation or in more legislation

I’m a bit confused.
Leafstamp · 12/06/2021 15:40

The bias is also astounding... RMW says:

Life can be difficult for so-called de-transitioners, as they may have had treatments or interventions which make that return incomplete or unsatisfactory.

What’s the betting that RMW does not make any remark about the results and effectiveness of treatments/interventions in order to transition in the first place?

Leafstamp · 12/06/2021 15:26

@Melroses

No idea

It says you can read the first chapter for free here www.lawbriefpublishing.com/product/transgenderlaw/

It's "All about trans" 🙄

Just read the first few paragraphs and it’s claims are not even referenced/footnoted!

Surely that’s A Level essay standard practice, never mind so-called professional lawyer?!

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 12/06/2021 14:51

@WhatyoutalkingaboutWillis

Your opening post is now on Twitter! *@rabbitwoman*
Ooooo.....

takes a bow

I will take a look..... 😉

OP posts:
Melroses · 12/06/2021 13:44

It is worth watching the end of the evidence session for a bit of a finely tuned legal gotcha. Who knew.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/fb12feef-6d41-457a-a102-ea59813bb583

Q68 Robin Moira White: Absolutely. The definition in the Equality Act is that a woman is a female of any age and a man is a male of any age. Forgive me, Karon’s analysis is perfectly intellectually valid, but a different analysis—and we haven’t tried this through—is that all that those definitions do is say that a girl is a woman and a boy is a man. ELA’s view is that there is a complete lack of clarity about that in the Act, so working out who is in which sex for the purposes of the Act is still something that needs to be clarified either in terms of litigation or in more legislation

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/06/2021 13:30

@Mollyollydolly

I'm surprised Robin hasn't commented. Being an avid reader of this board.
To be fair, the ruling is recent. I wonder if the publishing house has requested an erratum that they will host online to take the ruling into account - and publicise at all good booksellers etc.?

If RMW is working on (an) erratum/errata then that might be quite time-consuming, not only wrt the specific chapter but other references within the book.

Mollyollydolly · 12/06/2021 13:20

I'm surprised Robin hasn't commented. Being an avid reader of this board.