Why conflate 'Gender Critical' and belief in immutable sex?

It will become a slur like T*rf.

For comparison, height is definitely influenced by sex as well as environment and genetics and it’s possible to discriminate against women on the basis of height, but it serves no useful purpose to talk about male and female heights as though Ronnie Corbett was somehow female.

I said 'personality traits that correlate broadly (on average) with sex, due to the interaction of sex-differences and social conditioning'.
I wasn't leaving out the bit about society, just wondering about the link to biology.

Again, you seem to be conflating personality/behaviour with gender.

That isn’t gender, it’s personality and behaviour traits. It’s possible to criticise gender (societal and cultural expectations)
but still believe that some personality and behaviour traits are influenced by sex.

Gender critical is not equivalent to blank slate.

Really interesting, thank you EmbarassingAdmissions.

Because they've been swept up in a collective psychic movement, and social media is all about signalling.

I attended a lecture recently in which the speaker discussed the influence of The Lonely Crowd.

She outlined that looking to others and sharing is a modern phenomenon of being able to have an emotion and be validated for it rather than cultivating solitude. It is only by cultivating solitude and being grounded in oneself that gives sufficient of a sense in self to be able to form a relationship with others. The capacity for solitude and being alone allows people not to be lonely and to develop empathy and understanding of others' perspectives rather than an exchange of validation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lonely_Crowd

It feels relevant and like something I should take the time to read.

why are there many bright young people, and many 'stars' who aren't partially young speaking out against the 'GC' view?

Because they've been swept up in a collective psychic movement, and social media is all about signalling.

And in every society ever known, the local, cultural expectations of the two sexes are hard to defy and almost impossible to escape for individuals.

That is what feminism is about. The priority should be lifting people from the deprivations and damage visited on them because they belong to a sex that isn't permitted to identify out of oppression.

It's all very well people in advanced democracies muddying the water and saying biological sex isn't real; when the invading army rolls into town, the soldiers have no trouble knowing who to rape and who to recruit. Nobody ever tried to cut out the clitoris and stitch up the labia of a little boy. Nobody lets a little girl slip into the classroom of a school that's only for the boys.

We don't need the genital police or chromosome testers at the doors of single sex spaces to know who should and shouldn't be in there; as socialised humans we can categorise people by sex in a nanosecond and we're doing it all the time, without even thinking about it. The fact that we can't readily do it with infants and pre-pubertal children is why people get embarrassed if they misread the sex of a baby and why parents encumber the baby girls with those ghastly headwraps and bows on elastic, and why children's clothing and shoes and hairstyles are so strictly policed.

If we couldn't easily tell who was who post-puberty, we'd need to go on doing that stuff throughout life, and we don't

Stand me at a washbasin and let 100 people stand next to me and wash their ringless bare hands and I guarantee I'll know men from women, every time without needing to hear a voice or notice height or clock clothing or look higher than their wrists.

[quote Soontobe60]This makes for very interesting viewing, explaining the language used by those who believe society based on sex as opposed to those who would advocate for a society based on gender identity.

“Gender is affected by culture”

It’s perfect. You can travel across the world and experience the various roles and expectations that a woman must conform to. Your sex will never change and the sexual reproduction role of your body will never change.

What I don't understand, after reading this thread when it's clear you can't change sex, and the gender definition from WHO is clear, why are there many bright young people, and many 'stars' who aren't partially young speaking out against the 'GC' view?

I agree that ‘gender critical’ implies a particular feminist analysis (like ‘TERF’), however, using the WHO definition it is pretty self explanatory.

Someone just posted a video about what gender and gender identity are on this thread, including this written definition, which I think is excellent.

Whoops

Part one of two excellent documentaries that tracks how gender stereotypes impact how children learn, achieve and deal with daily social interaction skills.

Notable as boys are not encouraged by society to develop emotional literacy. And taught to be physically aggressive in many cases. A subtle drip drip drip of cultural attitudes and media. The documentary tracks this to adulthood and male violence.

Great post flavouredbanana.

Many women around the world really can't separate gender roles and expectations from their sex. And it's harmful to them. Eg unable to access education. Hence feminists are GC by default.

To me 'gender' is shorthand for the phrase 'personality traits that correlate broadly (on average) with sex, due to the interaction of sex-differences and social conditioning'. I believe this type of gender is inevitable and pretty much universal among humans - it is a very rare person who really has no gender traits.

Which personality traits do you consider to be due to sex differences? The only sex difference I can think of that might be argued to affect personality is the fact that women give birth to babies and might be expected to have a more 'nurturing' personality.

But that's still just a stereotype tbh. It doesn't by any means apply to all women. Some have no desire to have babies. Some are unkind and abusive to their children.
Many are great parents but do not have a 'soft, maternal, nurturing' type of personality. And with those who do have that type of personality, what evidence is there that it is innate and tied to sex differences? If it's innate, why aren't all women like that?

In any case, most of the 'gender characteristics' discussed in the context of the trans debate are superficial and surely have absolutely bugger all to do with innate sex differences and everything to do with social conditioning.

The video linked upthread is good though, i saw it elsewhere yesterday,

I'm increasingly disliking the label gender critical for people who are speaking out against the specific issue around the idea that you can change sex, and implications for law and safeguarding as there really is so much confusion around what it actually means.

Online it's smeared and those with no interest in unpicking what it actually means close their ears to any arguments.

The only reason they're linked is simply that, as WHO above, gender is socially constructed.

You can't change sex in the way you change clothes.

But many younger people don't understand the term gender in the same way as the WHO definition.

To me 'gender' is shorthand for the phrase 'personality traits that correlate broadly (on average) with sex

That is your definition, but the WHO definition is:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed.

www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Women who are critical of gender are referring to the WHO definition.

Basically just rewording things that have already been said but anyway-

I described myself as a "wannabe gender deconstructionist" before I was aware of a movement to consider people to be the sex they identify as rather than their physical sex. I associated rigid gendered expectations with conservatism, so it seemed really odd to me when I first saw conservatives being referred to as "GC." I do think it would be useful to have a term that simply refers to rejecting the plan to replace sex with gender identity without any other implications.

When I became aware of what I call "genderism," I was struck by how much attention is being paid to more superficial aspects of gender roles, that is, clothing or makeup, or even body modifications, while at the same time a complete de facto denial of the aspects of gender that I consider most harmful- the tendency for females to get stuck with the unrewarded shit work, the tendency for females to prioritize others, (males in particular,) the tendency for females to be self-effacing, while on the other hand, the tendency for aggression, violence and perveyness to come from males.

How much of this comes from girls being taught in myriad ways that they must be pretty and nice, and the boys being taught in a myriad ways that they must be strong and tough? When I first noticed that "women's studies" was being replaced by "gender studies," in universities, I was pleased because I thought those were the kinds of things they would be tackling...

I would really like to know how this would be playing out if transwomen who behave like stereotypically creepy men were as rare as women who behave like stereotypically creepy men.

Seems fairly impossible, and also not really all that nice.