What is Lib Fem?

Liberal feminism would say that a woman's choice to paint nails is a choice entirely of her own that cannot be attributed to anything other than the fact that this woman wanted her nails to be painted.

You can test this theory by asking yourself if quite so many women would paint their nails if there were no men in the world (that is not a proposal), undoubtably some would but would it be enough to sustain a whole industry.

Being politically/philosophically liberal means it is very much focused on the individual and individual rights,

Including, I'd imagine, the right to organise as a political class based on whatever criterion they want, such as sex. The woman in the video (the one with prints on the wall, not Berns) seemed closer to the "Angel in the House" position - everyone else comes first, and how selfish you are to think of yourselves when there are others who are so needy. Too self immolating for my taste.

SecondGentleman

I do often wonder why people who subscribe to that view think companies have advertising budgets...

I don't think radical feminism (or whatever you want to call non-liberal feminism) is about criticising individual women's choices. It's about analysing the way that women's oppression as a class affects these individual choices.

So to use the nail polish example - radical feminism wouldn't tell a woman that she's wrong to paint her nails, it would say that her choice to paint her nails has been materially influenced by her being a woman. Liberal feminism would say that a woman's choice to paint nails is a choice entirely of her own that cannot be attributed to anything other than the fact that this woman wanted her nails to be painted.

I painted my nails pre baby. Bleached hair and all that. Doesn't make me a lib fem.

I think sex work being normalised is harmful for individuals who have to resort to it. I also think minorities and victims need protections in law.
Boiling it down to make up choices shows how superficial your understanding is.

Liberal feminism is the feminism men like and approve of, which rather confirms that it's not really feminism.

Indeed. The times I've seen women tell lesbians to get over their PTSD so they can shag transwomen, it's been liberal feminists doing it.

Where's the support for "all women" there? Seems like support for "women who agree with me" to me.

Liberal feminism has long historical roots, and liberal feminist ideas and campaigns have helped gained us many legal rights. Being politically/philosophically liberal means it is very much focused on the individual and individual rights, which is how for some it's morphed into the choicey choice empowerment model we see splashed across the media. What's often seen as 'libfem' today is far removed in many ways, and certainly it lacks the analysis of the foremothers of liberal feminism.

Whereas lib fem would be more like women have a mind of their own, and support all women, not just those with the same views.

Except supporting the women whose needs and intersections require single sex spaces and language and to be able at times to define themselves as a separate, sex based class. I've yet to see evidence that those women and those views are supported and included at all.

Thanks for the YouTube link, it made me sad though, remembering that she is no longer with us

This pretty much sums it up for me....

Intersectional feminism on the other had gets a back rap because it's original meaning has been hijacked.

From memory it was first coined in relation to an pay equality battle in the US (Ford???) where women argued they were paid less. The counter argument from the company was to demonstrate they were paid the same as black men - hence is was not an issue of sex.

The obvious counter was black women not only got paid less then men but their female white counterparts hence their intersection between their sex and race. That also evolved to include women who were subject to discrimination on the basis of sex plus religion/race/disability etc.

The focus however was always women until it was hijacked by Lib Fems to include trans women as being intersectional because they believe TWAW.

Lipstick feminism!

Can't beat Magdalen's video!

It's the sort of feminism that doesn't want to piss men off.

I think (well this is my take anyway)
Women who support all other women, not just those with the same views.
So for example

• like the thread on here a while back looking down on women for painting their nails, apparently you're only doing it "for the lads" or because you've been brainwashed into thinking you need to look pretty by the patriarchy. You can't possibly want to do it for yourself. You just think you do 'cos been told to. Whereas lib fem would be more like women have a mind of their own, and support all women, not just those with the same views.

It means healthy, middle-class graduates with loads of options in life and family to rely on telling us that a single mum in prostitution to feed her children because their father doesn't pay child support is empowered, and telling us that criticising a society that has put her in that position is removing that woman's agency.

This belief means they don't feel any need to campaign to reform child support payments, never mind pay higher taxes to fund a better welfare state.

Grr. Huge overlap, obvs.

I guess that's really about "intersectional feminism", but there's a huge with "liberal feminism". Everyday Feminism is both. Both are more accurately described, as Magdalen does, as "not feminism".

Intersectional and inclusive feminism. Tends to focus more on the ways that multiple vectors of oppression might impact women like sexism + racism. Less interested in "woman as product of her biology" and more as "woman as a social construct". Generally more into sex positivity. Is inclusive of sex workers and trans women. Probably more into choice so choice feminism is probably a fair description.

Just came here to post that video! It explains liberal feminism perfectly.

Bang on Necessary and a timely reminder from Magdalen. I had forgotten about this particular video.

I think it's epitomised by Everyday Feminism, as skewered by Magdalen Berns in this video.

Liberal Feminist.

People think it means different things.

For me it began sometime in the 90s

Girl power
Get your tits out for the lads
Sex work is work (not prostitution and women like doing it as a job)
Sex positive (don't link shame)

Also described as Choice Feminism.

Also sometimes described as being a 'pick me' feminist. As Julie Bindel explains, she is a feminist, not the fun kind.

Gender critical means different things to different people too.