Compromise for new FWR section - could you support this?

Signalbox I fear if two boards did happen the one that allowed GC discussion and rad FEM would be targeted and eventually shut down.

You're probably right. And perhaps this is a sneaky way of trying to achieving just that.

I can't quite imagine how Mumsnet thinks their proposed system would work though. I mean don't all feminist issues centre around sex and gender in some way? And if threads start popping up about how sex work is empowering or how women shouldn't centre their reproductive systems at the heart of feminism it is still going to kick off because all the unkind hateful women will still be on site and up for debating actual women's rights.

No, leave it alone - thin end of the wedge and all that. Mumsnet, are you crazy? Budging over, how long before you call the site BirthingBodiesNet?

And it would be useful to direct the trolls on this board there when they come in to try to tell us we can't talk about the ways that transactivists are attacking women's rights.

I think we would need to understand the moderation principles for moving a thread. Would a community disrupter (as per Bunbury) anybody who wished to be able to derail/merail a thread to their own agenda be empowered to insist the moderators should move it?

Are we now the equivalent of cis-feminists? Being made into a separate subsection of “inclusive feminism” which includes anything anyone wants to call feminism?

How the fuck did anyone think that was an ok thing to do given the way women have been pushed into being a subset of womanhood over the past few years to accommodate everyone else?

Have another think about this please @MNHQ - you can’t remove sex and gender from discussions about feminism.

I think the worry is this:
Split into two - board where you can discuss sex (as someone called it on another thread "the gulag") and board where you can't, or don't want to.

Then the people who think we shouldn't be able to talk about these things at all can pressure to get "the gulag" closed by saying "oh but we're not trying to stop feminists from talking, look, there is a board here full of feminists able to talk as much as they like (as long as they don't mention the elephant)".

It’s doomed to failure anyway

I agree with this but why does it matter? As long as this space is left alone.

I'm probably missing something, but I don't understand the objections to this idea in the form that OP has suggested it.

I agree it would be a very bad idea to split off discussion of gender critical issues from other feminist issues. Because you can't separate them. The other board without GC opinions allowed would be some piss-poor parody of feminism, so women wanting advice or discussion around important feminist issues not related to gender would be very poorly served.

But what's wrong with the idea of leaving this board as it is, with any topic of discussion related to feminism allowed? And creating an extra board for people who want to discuss feminism without transactivism issues intruding into the discussion? I think if MN users want that kind of space it would be a good idea for them to make it. And it would be useful to direct the trolls on this board there when they come in to try to tell us we can't talk about the ways that transactivists are attacking women's rights.

What's the downside? I don't see how it would affect this space negatively.

It’s doomed to failure anyway, because we all know that our what our friendly local “just popping in to be inclusive” visitors absolutely don’t want is to leave us alone to think our nasty thoughtcrimes in peace. They want to come over and covert us and tell us we’re wrong - that’s the whole point!

The idea that instead there’ll be a jolly board talking about how intersectionality can solve the pay gap is a nice fantasy, but still a fantasy.

No. No way.

We don't need a "compromise", which would be just as ghettoising as the other pointless suggestions that have been put forward as some kind of "solution" to feminists discussing what they want want discuss.

Seems like a good idea to me. A section for feminists and a section for people who identify as feminists.

If some people want to create their own space and they can persuade MNHQ that it's needed then, as far as I'm concerned let them set it up - it's up to them and I neither support nor oppose it.

I'd be more convinced of this if they ever posted anything on any topics.
Mostly they just crash existing threads by saying we're talking about x too much.

They then usually cite fgm, prostitution as a more 'worthy' thing to discuss.
It's then usually pointed out that not only are these sex based issues, but are negatively impacted by gender identity and queer theory (Hibo Wardere and the Paris protests spring to mind).
They pretty much accuse us of being xyz and flounce.
They never start new threads.
They never contribute beyond moaning.

As predictable as the tides.

Signalbox I fear if two boards did happen the one that allowed GC discussion and rad FEM would be targeted and eventually shut down.
Leaving a space where people could post memes about Beyonce but all the sex based issues like fgm, pay gap would be disallowed. Not ideal.

We could have one board called “feminism and women’s rights” (FWR), and one called “The rights of some people who do menstruate and some people who don’t” (TRSPWMSPWD)

(Too much…? Sorry )

Why can't we just have x2 completely separate feminism boards?
Set up a new one for liberal/social justice feminism where they can talk about sex work, cis privilege etc. and keep FWR for feminists who understand that it is our biology that makes us female and that our oppression is sex based.

Beyond calling ourselves feminist we have so little in common so why on earth try and shoehorn us into the same section. Each board can then centre the issues it feels are most important to it.

What should the new ‘be kind’ board be called?

Bluntly, it should mention the phenomenon of self-harming* but that would be seen as advocating a deeply dangerous practice that is undermining the physical and emotional wellbeing of women…

*I should point out that some of the women who self-harm in this way (ceding women's rights on behalf of all women) are protected with full body knife-proof suits - although some may discover that the suits are not as advertised when it's rather too late.

I think if people are offended by the topics under discussion about women by women in a space for women, then they have two choices: scroll faster (indeed, don't click on the threads that you don't think will suit you is good advice for any Mum's Netter) or go off and start a new platform where feminist issues free from sex and gender can be discussed, and moderate the hell out of it.

I hope MN admin don't start closing down any mention here. I value the fact that people do express their personal opinions openly here; sex and how gender interacts with the sex-based rights and needs of women is integral to modern feminism and to ban talk about it seems bizarre; many members here have found friends and fellow feminists in a space where they can discover that they are not alone despite what other platforms seem to think.

In short: if FWR doesn't work for someone, they're free to leave. Please let this space be free from censure, blocking and denunciation.

Once a man says he's a woman and demands all our rights we've immediately stepped back 70 years. How should this be a sub-category of feminism? It at the crux of everyone. Males taking cross sex hormones are saying now that they will suffer menopause the same as women taking HRT. So can't even talk about menopause anymore without males jumping in.

What should the new ‘be kind’ board be called? ‘Things that annoy women and also probably annoy men too when you think about it, but aren’t really borne of misogyny because we would prefer not to think about that’?
Is there a move to hive off analytical vs annoyed boards in relation to race, disability, age, sexuality, religion?

No. I want to discuss my female rights as a woman within the Feminism board. I want to hear from fellow amazing feminists in the feminism board. I want a specific board where I can go to to read and discuss all issues affecting woman and girls.

Where gender issues is impacting on women’s and girls rights, safe spaces and lives, then it obviously needs to be discussed in the feminism board.

Hmm I wonder if that's why it's so vague and open to interpretation? It would be helpful if Justine could come and clarify but perhaps it's 'safer' not to?

It's also what I thought when I read it. I winced at first, then thought it could be directed at others, not GC Feminists, given the whole of the post about being happy with the ruling.

We have recurring threads from Bunbury about being aware of screenshots that can be misconstrued or taken out of context (as they are being by people who are antagonistic to the existence of discussion on these issues). It's a shame that Bunbury's guidance wasn't heeded by somebody who is very media savvy and experienced.

Wow that message from Justine is a bit tone deaf. I have never been deleted for being rude about Trans people, I have been deleted for such things as pointing out an offender was not female #NotOurCrimes and for expressing pity for a TW. I also noticed that when I started a thread that turned into useful resource thread due to the great FWR MN posters here I subsequently had a number of reports on that username that stopped when I NCed. Deletions are only about rudeness when one feels it’s rude for women to speak up, which is all about gender stereotypes and what sex we are.