Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

Please don't do this. This forum is amazing. Books will be written about it in the future. It's a unique place. If it's not broke don't fix it. I've never seen a board with so much engagement and intelligent thought provoking posts. Anyone can post, if people are engaged they will reply, if they're not they wont. You can't dictate what people want to discuss.

Not a good idea at all.
The discussion around sex and gender has been the way back into feminism for me. The topics on fwr are what the members want to discuss. Recently there's been a ton of gender and sex discussions because that's where the debate has been.
If, for example, there's legislation planned which will impact on women then fwr will likely turn to discuss more on that topic eg surrogacy, prostitution, abortion etc.
Sex and gender is at the heart of feminism fgs.

I do not understand why MNHQ isn’t hugely proud of this forum. There have been two monumental rulings in the last 6 months: Maya’s this week, and Keira Bell in December. These rulings have been huge for the protection of children being harmed when they can’t consent, and to protect women’s rights to not be discriminated against for agreeing with biology. I would not deign those rulings to be as a result of this forum, but both of those people, Maya and Keira, have posted here for support and proven to be right. I would imagine they would both acknowledge that this forum helped them in their causes. This forum facilitates huge discussion and momentum for change for the better for women and children. It’s probably one of the most “bang for your buck” places to make these changes. It’s a forum that misogynistic men like Owen Jones belittle, but I suspect are secretly terrified of. It’s a forum that is standing staunchly to protect women’s and girls’ rights even if there are those who are naive, not bothered, or think it doesn’t affect them when it does.

So true.

I came to this issue not from a feminist angle, but from free speech perspective. Censorship and ghettoizing of commentary is anti-democratic and goes against everything a liberal society should stand for. There are plenty of views of all sorts here. It really sucks that the opposition tends to post and run and when they stay cannot back up their assertions with facts. There are plenty of other threads here. I just posted in one a day or so about anesthesia and pain relief for women. Nothing trans there. Grow up.

I'm US based, but I come to Mumsnet because they are one of the few places women can discuss this and the demographic here is more my style than Ovarit. I would hate to see this bastion of good sense disappear especially when the tide is turning.

Women are not transphobic for wanting to preserve the sex based definition of womanhood or their language, rights and dignity.

I do not understand why MNHQ isn’t hugely proud of this forum. There have been two monumental rulings in the last 6 months: Maya’s this week, and Keira Bell in December. These rulings have been huge for the protection of children being harmed when they can’t consent, and to protect women’s rights to not be discriminated against for agreeing with biology. I would not deign those rulings to be as a result of this forum, but both of those people, Maya and Keira, have posted here for support and proven to be right. I would imagine they would both acknowledge that this forum helped them in their causes. This forum facilitates huge discussion and momentum for change for the better for women and children. It’s probably one of the most “bang for your buck” places to make these changes. It’s a forum that misogynistic men like Owen Jones belittle, but I suspect are secretly terrified of. It’s a forum that is standing staunchly to protect women’s and girls’ rights even if there are those who are naive, not bothered, or think it doesn’t affect them when it does.

And this is all done within, quite frankly, ridiculous extra moderation rules that aren’t applied to any other sub forum, and exist only to appease external monitors whose feelings get hurt by discussing reality.

This forum should in no way be subdivided. It should be front and centre and indicative of how support for women can bring change as monumental as those two rulings. Which is more important to MNHQ? That discussion of such things on this forum loses sponsorship, or that discussion of such things on this forum is supporting changes, legal changes, that will be discussed for decades to come in reference to women’s rights?

Don’t cave in MNHQ. Protect this forum, be damned proud of it, don’t cave in to pressure from those who seek to silence by dividing.

Thanks EmbarrassingAdmissions - I did go and check!

But still dont understand why petitions on feminist issues are shunted off into some unknown back water.

What PaleGreen said:
It is not our fault this is where feminism currently is. I can't imagine having a board for another rights campaign where those with an understanding of the structural inequalities that are the very basis for that rights campaign to even exist are asked to keep their thoughts separate.

I am now wondering is the thread on women walking alone has been moved because even though it is about the (sex class) of female somebody has decided it doesn't have a feminist aspect.

Unless I misunderstand your comment it's still here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4266448-Do-you-walk-alone

I would be really angry if I started a thread on FWR and lesbians / lesbianism and someone moved it to the LGBT board.

Whoever is doing this must think we are really stupid. If you want a discussion on same sex (oops that word again) attraction but in a feminist context it isn't anybody's business to stop you from doing this.

What is wrong with people thinking they can decide for somebody else what they really wanted.

Now I have heard this I am cross all over again.

I am now wondering is the thread on women walking alone has been moved because even though it is about the (sex class) of female somebody has decided it doesn't have a feminist aspect.

Am beginning to wonder who all these rule makers are, who somehow dont seem to grasp that the very basic point of feminism is that it is about women being treated differently, badly, violently because of their sex.

If there are people who want an additional board to discuss other issues then I think it's up to them to make the case for one, think up a name for it etc. I don't see why an established, well used and fast moving board should be the one that has to be moved.

Agree

It won't work. Most issues start with biology or end up being about biology.

Pretty much every feminist related discussion is linked to sex - surrogacy (only biological women can be a surrogate), sex work (exploitation & trafficking of mainly women), workplace discrimination on the basis of sex, sex differences in health, etc etc.

You can't separate the two.

I paid to become a premium member to support Mumsnet as they'd allowed these important discussions to keep going (albeit with some censorship). Not sure I'll bother if we're just going to be shoved into a box in the corner.

Not really no, posts on the LGBT boards are routinely hijacked. Using your analogy they shouldn't be, but there will always be a group of "rugby" fans who turn up.

I was unaware of the LGBT boards so I popped over and had a look. I think you are being very disingenuous, a few threads had started life on the FWR boards so naturally they featured regular FWR posters, those posts were moved not hijacked.

I recognised a few other names from the FWR but they appeared to have skin in the game wrt the topic of conversation. Your own comments were measured and supportive and would not have been out of place on FWR.

Overall I felt the tone of the threads was supportive, there were a few deletions for uncivil behaviour but those posters were not feminists or there to offer constructive advice as I'm sure was obvious to you.

Absolutely massively wrong move by Mumsnet. Someone really hasn't thought this through.

Sorry haven't had time to read all posts so far, and suspect I will just be repeating what others have already said.

to quote OP "to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender" as a suggestion just doesn't make sense. If you are discussing the hundred ways sex and gender impact on your life then how you view either of these will be reflected in what you want to say about that impact.

Are we able to have discussions on an issue where those with a different view on sex and gender can each comment and not have someone say in response but because I believe sex and gender mean that ... means what you have said make no sense.

So long as threads allow people to respond directly to previous posters this will always be an issue.

For this not to happen mumsnet would have to set up a different type of forum, where (for instance) a topic is announced, everyone who has a reponse sends them in by a fixed deadline, then mumsnet publishes them on a thread closed for responses.

And even if you someone created this artificial divide how would you stop the issue of sex and gender coming up?

And what I dont understand is that there are quite a few topics posted that aren't specifically about women as biological females, and quite honestly they get a very low response.

So either this means those who say they want other issues really dont, they just want to complain about others having different priorities to theirs, or they are telling mumsnet the mere existence of these threads on issues resulting from women being told their sex isn't real, is somehow so hostile and alienating, they cant even bring themselves to add comments to threads that aren't directly related to sex and gender.

What would this supposed "solution" solve?

And who is it that is asking for it. Has MNHQ provided any figures ie is this a request coming from over 50% of those using the FWR forum.

At the very least there should be a poll.

You would think mumsnet would be celebrating, having been mentioned as a source of support in the Maya case.

In a few years when all this push for self identity fades away and people return to their senses, MNHQ will be able to show that between 2014(?) and 202? they played a positively role in helping stop the erasure of women's sex based rights.

I imagine the plan will be - separate us off.

This means that lots of threads on the main board can be derailed with "this is in the wrong place".
Then, the separate board will be described as an "echo chamber" and shut down.
I'm getting more and more cross about this.
The question on site stuff originally asked was "in light of Maya yesterday, can we have a rethink on the moderation rules" and instead we got "we're going to split the board instead".

They won't get any more fivers out of me, that's for sure.

I would honestly love to see a genuine lib fem discusssion thread on mumsnet to have a good giggle.

Be kind
Be inclusive
Must do better
Must educate myself
Must recognise my position of privilege.

I don't always agree with it but I love the fury, intelligence, humour and forthrightness of the FWR board.

Furthermore, I believe I have faced barriers and discrimination because of my sex. I should be allowed to name and define my sex (not gender) on the feminism board.

I dislike a number of topics, baby names, trying to conceive, the dog house, threads about The Archers. But, I ignore them and move on with my day. Can I suggest that opponents to the FWR board either start their own libfem thread (so I can lurk and have a giggle) or just visit other parts of this huge discussion board.

Rant over. Time to post a wrong answer on the chat board.

#WOMENWON’TWHEESHT!

There are a lot of topics on FWR about sex vs gender because that’s what people here think is important. If we wanted to discuss sharing the bath water we’d go on women’s hour instead.

The fact that there are a plethora of posts about women's sex based rights and the erosion of such in society and the difficulties in discussing this suggest that these ARE the issues of primary concern to feminists. These are your user base MNHQ. There is nothing to prevent post on all issues concerning feminism and women's rights. But we have to be able to define what we mean by a female and a woman. Otherwise it is all bobbins.

I think that the feminist boards should stay as they are. This type of discussion comes up regularly in an attempt to shut discussion down.

Women will not shut up!

@TedImgoingmad I'll be interested to see the response to your comprehensive post.