Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

And then there was a substantial discourtesy to the overwhelming majority of posters who manage to discuss issues within the linguistic and other restrictions that MN mandates.

It's why I'm pegged at a 4 on the 1-10 scale of optimism that matters are improving.

I don't think it was meant to be a 'This is what we will do, deal with it!' mandate from MNHQ. I also don't think it was to ban 'sex' and 'gender' on the feminism chat board but to have a separate section for the trans-identity debate but the majority of posters have reacted completely differently to it that I don't think I'm the one who's reading it right. I thought MNHQ were trying to kill two birds with one stone but I could be wrong.

Great post, FannyCann. Maybe it is a really bad idea then. When I first saw the suggestion for the separate topic,I must admit I was naïve enough to assume that the fact that the gender/sex debate might be given its own subsection was a sign that the current steps forward for the GC movement had emboldened MN to grant it a place to stand out more in the open. I guess not.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/when-feminists-fight-back/amp?__twitter_impression=true

This is why we speak, and this why we shouldn't be corralled into the Unspeakable's corner of Munsnet

FannyCann
Such an excellent post. You have articulated so much and so clearly.
Thank you.

I think there is some doubling down going on, I think the monitors are out in force and we can expect to see some ridiculous post/thread deletions. I think the worst is yet to come.

Is it a way of telling us not to expect the Forstater case to have any effect here? So the response to asking if the rules can be relaxed is to suggest an unhelpful restructuring. We will then be grateful if they backtrack and we can just carry on as we were.

I think it's a really bad idea, but @Bordois is almost certainly correct.

Mumsnet had somehow passed me by through the years when my children were younger - I remember an article way back in time in one of the weekend newspaper magazines with Justine excitedly explaining why she was setting it up. It all seemed to be about the best buggy and her managing to tag along at the back of the crowd in the great Internet gold rush. I rolled my eyes and gave it a swerve.

Fast forward to the run up to the GRA consultation and my benign area of twitter (Archers, occasional news stories a few NHS doctors and chat) started having more concerning tweets. I credit Dr Christian with alerting me to the word terf. Dr Haddock (who he?) reared his unpleasant little head. And a link took me to this board. I was appalled and amazed at what I found, particularly regarding children. I could not believe that in the U.K., in our NHS, children were being given puberty blockers and put on a trans pathway because they had been judged for playing with the wrong toys. I had been completely unaware this was happening.

I never really took much interest in feminism and didn't count myself as one. I'm lucky enough not have experienced sexual abuse, the flashers that hung around my girls school were widely derided and we felt safe in a gang with our hockey sticks so we never really thought more deeply about it. In twenty years as a midwife I mostly thought feminism seemed to neglect mothers and small children, pushing to get women back in the workplace without considering their desire to care for their own children and the needs of small children.
It seemed to be mostly about overpaid women in jobs like banking and the BBC complaining about not being as overpaid as their male counterparts. Working in a female dominated area, in the NHS with its nationally (then, before devolution) agreed payscales I have never experienced sexism at work. I regret to admit as a midwife I didn't know enough about domestic abuse and how to address it, thankfully midwives are now taught to be alert for the signs and to question women and be proactive, the profession has caught up with the times in that respect.

So finding this board has been a great education for me. Of course the GRA consultation was hugely important and the ongoing discussions and events leading to Maya Forstater and the latest judgement. But there is so much more here, and my eyes have been opened to many other issues, and I'm very grateful for the wider education. I have two daughters, young adults now, and lots of the discussions that happen on this board are relevant to their lives.

Splitting the board will mean that ignoramuses like me will be unlikely to find it anywhere near as helpful, they probably won't find the other section (isn't that the plan?) there will be a greater tendency to think "oh well that's a different issue, it doesn't affect me" or whatever.

I just think it will lead to a slow death of FWR. Which is probably the plan.

If it’s something we’re not privy too, I bet you we can brainstorm it together...
If MNHQ wanted rid of FWR, they would have done so in the last few years, under the guise of some kind of site-wide restructuring. Maybe they haven’t because they don’t want to.
IF that’s the case, then either this proposal is a kneejerk, not-thought-out comment (unlikely since MNHQ don’t seem the kneejerk type) or they have a Cunning Plan 🦊

So why propose this now do you think? I feel like there must have been something else going on that I've missed.

I agree, but it's probably something we aren't privy to.

I subscribe to mumsnet, and the only reason I do is gratitude for them having this board where we can discuss this huge issue for women. Even heavily moderated as it is.

I came to this board as a worried mum of troubled teens. Mumsnet was a space very important when I Was raising my kids and during primary/secondary checking schools, shopping advice, etc.
Five years ago ROGD hit hard a group of girls in a girls only school I worked for and it was very scary to see. It’s been thanks to this Feminist board that I have found support as a mother, a friend to other mothers and an educational professional to apply some brakes to what it was a sure crash! It’s very sad to think there is a desire to sideline, obscured and annihilated what is a strong support group! I for one will be extremely disappointed on mumsnet. For me is the mains social media outlet to keep informed and participate in social debate. What is going on?

It does, and Justine acknowledged that.
So why propose this now do you think? I feel like there must have been something else going on that I've missed.

You're probably right, but I am just so incredibly annoyed about this. A huge point of law has been made, vindication what a lot of women have been saying, and when asked how this will affect rules and moderation on this board going forward the response is to suggest hiding us away.

Sometimes it seems to me that MNHQ want to take all the credit for hosting these discussions whilst simultaneously coming up with ways of making it as difficult as possible to have them.

I agree with PP, MNHQ should be bloody proud of what they’ve recently helped to achieve, MN has been part of the struggle to get our voices heard. But less than 24 hours after Maya’s historic achievement they’ve just made most posters on the Feminist Board, angry and upset!

I would have thought that the Maya Forstater ruling vindicated FWR so what's going on that I'm missing?

It does, and Justine acknowledged that.

Guides admitting boys on the sly brought me here.

I'm not sure it's fair to say MNHQ want to ditch FWR when they could have done it years ago and saved themselves a hell of a lot of hassle, legal consultancy fees and, I don't doubt, personal abuse. What puzzles me is the timing. Why now? I would have thought that the Maya Forstater ruling vindicated FWR so what's going on that I'm missing?

Let's be Frank. This plan is the first step along the way for Justine to jettison FWR completely.

We all know its a bad idea and will likely cause more disruption, reports and additional resources to mod, and that will then be the reason given for shutting it down completely with the added bonus of "we tried to give you a space but you nasty women just couldn't behave"

Personally I don't like always being labelled a radical feminist just because I don't think male born people should compete against female born people in sport.
I prefer to be just another human rather than a radical anything over what seems to me an obvious unfairness.
The media refer to radical feminists all the time so arguments appear to be held by a minority of extremists when that is most likely not the case .

I'm no expert on this stuff - just my view.

Ditto to greying . I became a premium member to be able to show a tiny bit of appreciation for having this board where I could freely post. I don’t see the point if we’re just going to be hived off again. Other posters put it more eloquently than I can but yes, Mumsnet ought to be proud of this board and the influence it has had. It (as in all the FWR posters here) has been a Godsend to me- a safe place when I’ve received the most Godawful threats elsewhere.

EmbarrassingAdmissions yes! It would be great if the big names stepped up and acknowledged how valuable this corner of Mumsnet is and that it is under constant attack and being undermined at every turn.

Is this a time when we could do with the various academics for whom we've written letters to Uni VCs to protect them reciprocating? Might they contact MNHQ to say what FWR represents? Kathleen Stock, Rosa Freedman?

And journalists like Suzanne Moore? James Kirkup, Janice Turner?

Lawyers like Naomi Cunningham.

Academics/authors like Sarah Pedersen?

Jane Clare Jones. Sharron Davies.

This would be a really bad thing for women and feminists as said above.

It is exactly what someone would do if they wanted to divide and conquer.

Is that really what MN towers want to achieve?

I first started reading this forum in 2017/2018 and even then it was clear that the conversation was unwanted here. Which is fine, it's a commercial site after all, but I never understood the praise MNHQ gets for (just about) tolerating discussion about women's rights. It would be absurd if it was banned altogether.
This latest move to hive off troublesome women from the main boards doesn't surprise me at all.