My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

They’ve all been brainwashed. The state of our schools is shocking.

Men are supposed to self examine, they don't normally have enough breast tissue to have a mammogram.

Mixed sex mammograms clinics are not OK. They need to be single sex, otherwise there are a lot of women who wouldnt be able to attend.

A big stick that was used to beat women was taken away today.
There are many sticks still used with which to beat them.

The balance of free speech has been restored but it won't take long for the pendulum to swing away from us again.

I see no reason to think much has changed unfortunately.
Haters gonna hate.

I have a DS that thinks it’s all nonsense and a DS that’s rather woke. I wonder if it’s partly down to the older one doing PSE before 2015 when Stonewall became all about the T and one doing PSE after this. I don’t remember any of my older DS’s friends coming out as trans or NB, but my younger one definitely has NB friends, which probably makes him more sensitive (and he is a “be kind” type anyway). Since he called me a transphobe for disagreeing with the TWAW mantra I’ve just avoided conversations that might end up in an argument.

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees 'It's as if they're being groomed from an early age to accept that being treated like shit is part of being a woman.'

God, I really hope one day soon this generation of teenage girls get as 'woke' about themselves as women, and the historical mistreatment and abuse of women, as they do about everyone else.

🤣😂🤣 Sex on a spectrum. Chromosomes on a spectrum 😂🤣😂

I don’t think this type of reaction is helpful tbh. Whether it’s true or not there is no need to laugh or make fun at what a teenager is saying - they will not come round or change their perceptions if you laugh at them and belittle them, there needs to be respect and understanding. I wholly agree with @Jewel, you can find common ground in what you are both saying and work from there.

Wow, so much intolerance! Not from you OP - I'm more talking about the reaction from lots. It's not on, your DD being rude, but I bet most of us were at some point at that age. Who hasn't been a passionate teenager - wouldn't we worry if they weren't?! There's loads of trash on TikTok, but there's some thoughtful stuff too. Patronising teens by not listening just makes them even more entrenched. The OP's DD mentioned chromosomal spectrum - that's hardly a dumb-ass thing, so she's clearly very far from dim. Others have said this, but she might well have a friend who's going through some gender issues. My DS has a friend who now openly identifies as 'gender fluid'. DS and his friends (both male and female) are fine with it. I think that's rather fabulous - ie that that a person can be so open and honest about who they are. I hate this notion that trans people are dangerous predators - I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's mind blowing that so many people think it's so prevalent.

I'm sure it will change as they grow older (mostly) but I do feel that their beliefs are so insular and unchallenged that they are genuinely shocked and upset when the people closest to them do not agree.

My teen DDs are very woke and we cannot have any discussions about these issues or even conversations which may end up potentially related.
It is totally frustrating but like pp I assume they'll wake up at some stage.

I'd have been the same at that age. They're the ones listening to all the sob stories on SM about how hard trans people have it. We're the ones on MN seeing all the abuse trans people give those who want to silence biological reality. I think the best way is to show that you aren't transphobic. Actively sympathise when you hear a trans person is going through difficulties (I'm sure you do anyway) show her it's not being trans per se that you have a problem with but some of the ideologies that come with it that impact on women and children.

I asked her what the evidence for this was. She could not come up with anything better than 'everyone knows she is'. I asked her to read JKR's letter and then tell me whether she is transphobic and if so why. She just wouldn't engage with it.

Yes I had this with DD 14 but she did at least read the letter although she made no comment.

She knows my views, I know hers, we don't really discuss it. All I've said is I don't understand her generation's obsession with having a label (we fought against all that in the 80s) but so long as she doesn't expect me to support her to irreversibly alter her body she can label herself what she likes. (I think it's currently non binary)

I do find it bizarre that so many girls seem to support this shit. Didn't a report the other day find that nearly 9 in ten girls have been sexually harassed in schools by boys or been pestered for nude pics and yet still they're fine giving up their safe spaces such as single sex toilets? It's as if they're being groomed from an early age to accept that being treated like shit is part of being a woman.

My child and I were discussing this too. Can you reframe it - the case is really about freedom of expression and whether believing something and expressing that belief is acceptable in law - the answer is that it is acceptable but ceases to be so at the point at which such expression is used to bully and harass others in a deliberate and antagonistic way. So for example, it is no different to a situation where for example a Muslim employee says in a discussion in the workplace that the only god is Allah. The law does not restrict that expression of belief but nor does it restrict an atheist colleague saying they disagree or a Hindu colleague talking about their beliefs which are different. It would be different if the other employees discriminated or subjected theMuslim colleague to some detriment because they disagreed with his belief. In law one belief is not prioritised over another. Their is no right not to be offended. There are good public policy reasons not to shut down debate.

Oooof. She has it coming. I really DID read philosophy at an RG uni and can state with some confidence that her views will be dissected and examined and regardless of what she thinks she thinks, she will leave being very sure of them!!!

My teen DD is similar.

They cry because they cannot reconcile facts with the cult like acceptance that is demanded in schools and peer groups.

It’s so difficult for them .

I think there is a lot of fear. I certainly know there are issues I don't want to talk about with some friends, because I'm worried that my views, though they exist, are uninformed, I'm not certain I'm right and I'm afraid of getting labelled. Israel/Palestine would be one of those.

Asking a kid to deal with the process of learning that they don't agree with everything their mum says, that they may agree with some bits of it but if they told their friends those bits they'd lose their connections to the approved circle- that's terrifying.

I find myself going back to Deborah Tannen's 'you just don't understand' about the different ways that men and women (DEFINITELY gender not sex words in this case) use conversation. Women use it to make connections. What you know, when you know it, what you approve and what you disapprove are all tools to keep you in your place in the network. You share problems as currency in your friendships. You don't 'get above yourself' or try to establish hierarchy in conversation, the male gender does that. Ostracism is used as a sanction to exclude from connection.

I don't discuss this much with my son because I actually don't want to over influence him. We have young women in our circle who are transitioning, I have my own thoughts about it and I mention it briefly without dwelling on it. If he ever asks me my thoughts or tells me what he thinks, we can have the conversation.

I think you did the right thing OP. You aren’t “being kind” by engaging with this matter anything other than critically. You are completely right that this sort of wish fulfillment would place her in a poor position at university.

The workplace is even tougher - in the next few years England will be revising a lot of workplace policies and Maya’s result will have to integrated and respected in that process.

As a generation older who sometimes encounters junior staff in their twenties, they really lack good reasoning and logic skills. And you can see their absolute frustration and sometimes anger that this what employers want. It’s as if they feel they were lied to.

She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum.

I'd find this really hard to ignore or placate tbh. A spectrum has a very specific scientific meaning (a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary, without steps, across a continuum). Basically, if it is something you can count (like apples) is CANNOT exist on a spectrum. If is it something you measure (the weight of an apple) it can exist on a spectrum. Chromosomes are things which can be counted.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Nobody is entitled to their own facts.

What makes things difficult is that platforms like TikTok ban gender critical creators so it's really difficult to get contra messages to young people who get most of their 'information' from them.
We really do need some snappy, well made gender critical content to share with our young people. I showed DS some of Magdalen's funnier videos but the longer and more serious ones are beyond his concentration span.

Well if your philosophy is "be kind", where does that end?

That's easy! "Be kind" is telling women what they need to, not what the speaker needs to do.

Students these days are really only taught one point of view, certainly on this type of issue, and that is very much guided by the over-arching principle of tolerance. And I am so on board with tolerance and respect for everyone, but I do feel that the infringement of the trans movement on women's rights is the issue, rather than acceptance and tolerance of trans people themselves.

I just feel like they are 2 totally separate issues and not sure why they've been conflated? Being supportive of people's right to live as trans doesn't mean you also automatically have to be on-board with referring to biological women as 'menstruators' or 'birthing parents' or you're a bigot. There doesn't seem to be the same issue with infringement on language around men or male brand adverts now talking about 'shavers' or 'penis owners' to feel more inclusive.