My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

and transwomen who are at least as badly (and in many cases probably more) discriminated against

In what sense?

Trans women who have physically changed sex

They have not physically changed their sex. They have undergone gender reassignment surgery, not sex reassignment surgery.

Can any PP who says that it's possible to change gender but not sex explain what 'gender' is?

I haven't really made a big deal about talking through these issues with my DD. We talk about a lot of things and most of what we talk about when getting philosophical is about the difference between the structural (i.e the patriarchy) and the personal (choice, for want of a better description). How choices aren't made in a vacuum and how 'harm' and 'be kind' are wider than the immediate effect adjacent to you.
Taking a step back and a wider view makes you see things differently. I think she values fairness and integrity but avoids talking about gender issues with her friends as she doesn't see it the same way as many of them do. The peer pressure for opinion conformity is high.

Yep had abuse too from teen dd for sticking up for women rights. I hope that when these girls are adults they might respect the fight but I feel brainwashing is happening in our schools and on SM

@Subbaxeo - thanks for clarifying re: breasts

Trans women who have physically changed sex

They haven't physically changed sex. Hormones and surgery don't equal a change in sex. It just means what is is, taking hormones (and having surgery in some cases) and acquiring the associated risks of.

Mixed sex mammograms clinics are not OK. They need to be single sex, otherwise there are a lot of women who wouldnt be able to attend.

Missing the point entirely I’m sure, but I don’t think a mammogram clinic is a woman’s space - obviously the vast majority of patients who attend are women but men do sometimes get breast cancer and presumably if that is suspected they are sent to the nearest mammogram clinic?

When they cry about suicide rates and the hard time such people have - ask for the evidence please. They have more protection under the law than a boring ‘old’ (which is a protected characteristic by the way) woman. Ask why anyone can say they are female (no questions allowed) in Scotland to gain a place as a board member - brought in to ensure female representation in boards.

Women are abused and threatened for stating biological facts (not learned from tik tok - snigger) and yet this is ok? What about pharma in the US and the extremely wealthy individuals using their money and influence (didn’t amazon have a strop in a state and threaten to nor set up a distribution centre if they didn’t drop a proposed law?) to promote legislation and social change?

Insults and flouncing is hardly a reasoned or robust debate. I’d the OPs daughter is off to uni, god help her if she has a tutor or lecturer who actually tries to get them to debate and think for themselves.

@Clarice99, trans women who have taken hormones to physically transition have breasts.

Trans women who have physically changed sex are at greater risk than men because of the hormones taken. They are invited on the screening programme and can have mammograms. Men can also have mammograms if male breast cancer is suspected, and, yes, there is enough tissue.

I have a 15 year old son and whilst he knows the difference between sex and gender and knows of trans kids in his school he just isn't interested. I do think (from this thread and other bits of reading) it is a girl thing and it does seem very cool to give yourself a label and be swept along with the crowd. I think an example of this was the 'superstraight' thing that started a few months ago where a boy jokingly put up a tiktok that he would only date biological girls (basically a heterosexual relationship). From what I recall it got something like 2 million likes (could be wrong) before TikTok took it down - because it was supposedly 'transphobic'? It seems like everyone is trying to beat everyone else to be 'new' and 'on-trend' and they are running out of options.

I also think it is about perception. Young people's experiences of 'trans' are often their friends or some young mtf swishing their hair on tik tok asking for validation on how (questionably) gorgeous they are! However, as you get older (and possibly have kids of your own) you are probably more inclined to see the implications of grown men in female spaces.

I've had to just keep the trans discussion with DD quite subtle to avoid too many rows

I have to do this unfortunately it's at peak wtf do you know about anything time as well.

A couple of years ago I didn't think we'd have a problem but school, friendship group constantly changing names and pronouns, youth group they went to for a while then LGBT+ group at school and more general zeitgeist and we do.

We watched John Oliver and he has a comment about JK and she started up and I had to say have you read what she actually said answer was no so I suggested she did.

DS is less an issue so far I think - though very quite on the subject - but I was in same room as he was watching minecraft you tuber and suddeny the guy started spouting utter nonsense on the issue and be kind shit - I did ask some questions and DS seemed about what was being said.

I think there's a lot of drip drip drip for them. I certainly found the workplace eye opening in an awful way - maybe it will be the same though I do wonder.

Mine haven't stormed off or burst out crying but I am careful - not least as DH gets a very worried look every time I do though he's seen the light for a while thanks to work situation.

It’s incredibly introspective (natural for teenagers I guess) and I am worried that they won’t learn to judge critically because they are too busy trying to be inclusive but really being intolerant of anyone who dares to question their beliefs. Really hoping it’s a phase that will pass but lockdown hasn’t been helpful in this respect

Tell her that shes welcome to believe whatever she wants. Its a free country, but likewise, you are entitled to your views too, and its interesting that shes getting upset over something that has just been legally deemed to be a protected view. This has been pored over by the courts and youre just discussing something current in the news that you think is sensible and in line with scientific thinking. If she wants to educate me on what tiktok thinks, then no need as youre quite aware

*"I think I'm going against the consensus in this thread, but I actually don't agree the OP is handling it well, because it sounds like you're being just as simplistic as your daughter is.

It may not be welcome in this forum to say it, but there's a real debate to be had here.

I consider myself a diehard feminist, and I hate seeing how this battle is being played out between women, who have been and are badly discriminated against, and transwomen who are at least as badly (and in many cases probably more) discriminated against. Surely, we have more in common than what divides us?

Some of the language that the OP is using ('brainwashed') suggests that the OP doesn't acknowledge any room for debate and I can understand how the daughter finds this frustrating."*

@WanderleyWagon yeah I agree (although I do have some problems with some of the 'be kind' brigade as sometimes it's used just to try to shut people up).

I also see that those on the GC side often really patronise the other side, eg 'they'll come round when they've grown up' or seeing it as a teenage phase (akin to what some used to say about people coming out), which is quite rude really. I can see why that's frustrating too.

Then I said so why are women losing their jobs for saying biological sex is real. Tears, screaming, shouting, flouncing.

The reason she reacted like this sounds to me as though she knows her 'argument' has no weight and the outcome of Maya's appeal further evidences that her TikTok education is of zero value.

Your daughter was rude and I can understand that her comments would be hurtful to you OP. I'm not going to defend your daughter's actions, but at play here are immaturity, huge social media influence and peer pressure, so until she grows up and realises the truth, that sex is binary and TW are not women, it might be best to refrain from discussing it with her.

Oh, and she owes you an apology for her outburst/ageist comment.

Women who have transitioned from men have screening mammograms.

What does the above mean? A man who identifies as a woman, who has fake breasts has a screening mammogram?

I had the same very brief discussion with my DS....and he got very ranty when mansplaining his very scientifically minded DF ...about what transphobia is about over the cricket...so its not just girl's....I'm just gently reminding him about chromosomes and suggesting we talk about gender as a social construct.....soon makes him leave the room....he's younger 16 but thinking about philosophy so needs to learn how to discuss!

Keep having to not get ranty myself sometimes 🙃

I think it's because they have to confront the sheer cognitive dissonance of it all, which must be very distressing.

Exactly, and if they could no longer believe it or pretend convincingly they'd be an unwoke pariah like you, to their friends and peer group.

My dd and I don't discuss trans issues at all anymore.
So I am taking a side on approach, such as discussing the rate of violence that makes commit, that mainly this violence is directed at other men but that also violence against women is perpetrated by males mostly as well.
Today or tomorrow I will try and go on from there to mentioning why women should have protected spaces that are single sex.
Part of our discussion yesterday was also around the fact that women can perceive more shades of colour than men and that men are more likely to suffer colour blindness.
So a drip drop approach which makes her consider differences between men and women, biologically and socially, with the hope that one day her brain will make the connection between biology being immutable and that that means men cannot become women and vice versa.
But yes is frustrating in the extreme!!

I like to fight woke with woke (I am actually pretty woke in general). They can dismiss me as a white privileged ageing bigot but I find it's harder for them to belittle women of colour like the mighty Allison Bailey and Keira Bell. And the number of LGB people of all races who think the trans movement is fundamentally homophobic. They don't like being told they're being homophobic.

In my more optimistic moments I remember I was the teenage girl who thought porn and "sex work" was empowering (and worse things about DV and sexual assault).