My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

Apologies for not using the correct term.I’m not au fait with the current politics but I meant if a man physically transitioned into being a woman.
Very few transwomen have any form of genital surgery. Those who choose to take cross sex hormones may develop extra breast tissue or they may choose to have silicone implants put into their chests. Their risk of breast cancer might be somewhat higher than other men because of this but as there is already separate screening for men I do not see why this needs to impact the single sex provision for female patients.

Hopefully she is going to Sussex and Kathleen Stock will be her professor -

It isn't just TikTok. The BBC spent yesterday reporting Maya F as 'a woman who claims that people cannot change sex. Claims, not 'said;
And in every news bulletin and report they referred to that 'claim' as a 'belief'. 'Her belief that people cannot change sex' etc.

Weasel words.

I am another feminist who would like to see closer ground between women discriminated against through sex-based oppression, and Transwomen who undoubtedly also face discrimination - including actual transphobia.

We should be able to support someone being Trans - changing gender - without being accused of violence and transphobia because we recognise sex and gender as different things and with some different ramifications.

Subbaxeo - Can you clarify what you mean by this, please?

I meant if a man …transitioned into being a woman.

Do you mean legally rather than physically - or did you mean the latter? If so, what do you mean by it?

Had a mammogram two weeks ago and because of ill fitting curtains found I was flashing the whole reception area. The nurse and I had a bit of a laugh but it would have been very different if it had been a mixed sex area.

Tiktok doesn't sound like the greatest resource, but it might be useful for you and your daughter to look at the work of Judith Butler, Margaret Atwood and Gloria Steinem, all of whom are prominent feminists who advocate for trans rights as trans women are women. You may do well to listen to your daughter as he attitude towards treating people with kindness is brilliant.

I'm sorry that angers you. But there are women who would be unable to attend a mixed sex clinic for various reasons. So they are single sex, and it is legal.

metro.co.uk/2018/03/04/men-banned-from-waiting-rooms-to-support-women-through-breast-cancer-scares-7360349/

The upside, I fervently hope, is that teenagers are entirely swayed by what’s fashionable, and what’s fashionable now is going to be something they’ll want to reject in a few years’ time; so fungers crossed that in the end we can rely on teenagers’ own fickleness in reacting against previous cohorts’ pet ideas.

Ten or twelve years ago at the end of the last Labour government all my students were very socially conservative, very gendered (girls all dolled up in makeup and dresses for lectures, boys v openly homophobic); and they were simply not interested in any kind of identity politics, which they thought very old-fashioned. On the contrary - they were all self-styled “radical conservatives” and pro-Nick Clegg “radical centrist” Lib Dem activists, as according to them, the new “kind conservatism” and the Big Society was the way forward 😂 (It’s quite hilarious to think of this now. I kind of miss those particular delusions….)

So, hopefully, in ten years’ time these “woke” delusions will be replaced with something else completely different, and gender identity will then be oh-so-old-fashioned. (Let’s just hope whatever replaces it is reasonably sane and not even worse.)

(All this is I know not reassuring for those whose kids are right in the middle of it….) Has anyone tried asking their teenagers why, if gender identity ideas are right, they’re so incoherent and contradictory? Logically trans and non-binary should be the opposite to each other, but they don’t seem to see that. How does believing fervently in a gender binary in the case of trans people, square with the ideas of the “non-binary” ones who are trying to get away from one altogether? If biological sex is a spectrum why are non-binary people rejecting biological sex because it’s too binary, since then sex would be non-binary anyway and they wouldn’t need to? You can’t believe in both things at the same time - the internal logics don’t work together.

They never seem to think about these contradictions, but gently pointing them out does flag up some of the conceptual incoherence and inconsistencies that are being papered over, and hopefully it might get some doubts going.

I have heard of very awful things happening to trans women and terrible discrimination towards them

What kind of thing are we talking about? I'm not sure what page you're on.

@toffeebutterpopcorn I'm not actually sure, but I deliberately didn't use Stonewall as a source because I thought it might be considered biased.

@GreenBlood also to say, I don't particularly stand anywhere on the trans debate but I have heard of very awful things happening to trans women and terrible discrimination towards them. It's a tricky one because I see much of their plight as part of the hate the world has towards anything considered part of women's experience and yet I would hate to betray the sisterhood in any way. I feel like it is a debate where everyone loses.

Good grief it’s just a waiting area!

It's a waiting area where you need to take your bra off under your top.

Mixed sex mammograms clinics are not OK. They need to be single sex, otherwise there are a lot of women who wouldnt be able to attend.

Good grief it’s just a waiting area! The actual mammogram (as you may know, no assumptions being made either way) is not done in some sort of mixed sex group. It’s private!

Sex matters. Without acknowledging sex, we can't recognise the oppression women face for being female.

I think trans women include themselves in the 'women' category though

It's not true though. They are male. Women are female.

@AlfonsoTheMango

Just to clarify:

Do you really believe that taking cross-sex hormones changes sex in human beings?

Absolutely not!

@Subbaxeo appears to hold the above view.

However, I do not. Never have. Never will.

I don't want the quoting to muddy the waters

The suicide rates have been generally dispelled haven’t they, and the Samaritans have commented that these should not be stated as facts? It’s usually used as a shut down to conversation isn’t it?

Yes suicide is certainly an issue never to be taken lightly - nor used as a threat to close down discussion. ‘Cry’ was used more in the way it is used in an emotional way to about down an opponent or someone with differing views (shout, exclaim, etc).

[quote GreenBlood]@LadyOfLittleLeisure please don't insult the two hundred million missing women and girls, dead through murder or neglect for being female, or the two hundred million female victims of FGM, by saying 'TW' are discriminated against just as much.

The VAST majority of 'TW' are white, straight, middle class men. Don't EVER insult the women murdered by men every ten minutes. Don't insult the one in three women and girls who will face male violence at least once in their lives.

By saying these white, straight, middle class males are the same as they are, you slap the face of all the millions of women and girls who truly do suffer because they are FEMALE.

So kind to men....and so cruel to women.[/quote]
@GreenBlood violence against women and girls is absolutely horrendous and I completely agree with you that the total number of women affected by it is enormous. I think trans women include themselves in the 'women' category though and also the amount of trans women as a proportion of people is really quite small so it would be more accurate to look at percentages affected to make a comparison. My point was more about dismissing all the pro-trans views as like a childish phase is rather rude and dismissive.

As far as why it's girls who are so into this, in part I think it's related to the fact that teen girls are much more often the leads in picking up new linguistic usages and new words and incorporating them into their groups.

This has been known for a long time, and in this case they've picked up the whole language and so what it represents seems to be clearly true.

It's also great for putting people into social hierarchies which is a big part of teen girl social life.

"the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population" www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

There is just no need to conflate the two. Biological sex is a fact.

Trans issues are trans issues and do not cross over into facts. I often just don’t get it! Why are facts so controversial?

@LadyOfLittleLeisure please don't insult the two hundred million missing women and girls, dead through murder or neglect for being female, or the two hundred million female victims of FGM, by saying 'TW' are discriminated against just as much.

The VAST majority of 'TW' are white, straight, middle class men. Don't EVER insult the women murdered by men every ten minutes. Don't insult the one in three women and girls who will face male violence at least once in their lives.

By saying these white, straight, middle class males are the same as they are, you slap the face of all the millions of women and girls who truly do suffer because they are FEMALE.

So kind to men....and so cruel to women.

[quote Subbaxeo]@Clarice99, trans women who have taken hormones to physically transition have breasts.[/quote]
Do you really believe that taking cross-sex hormones changes sex in human beings?