My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

LadyOfLittleLeisure

"the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population" www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

How are we defining transgender people? Is it possible that many who commit suicide would be better placed in the "undiagnosed depression" category of suicide risk, or "abused children" category? Is it possible we are underplaying the risks associated with depression or homophobic bullying or being abused leading to suicide, and overplaying the numbers of "genuinely trans" people who exist and are killing themselves? Are we, in many cases, letting teens down who are identifying as trans by not addressing other issues in their lives?

@WanderleyWagon over the years through work as both colleagues and patients I've met both transwomen and transmen.

The colleagues have been fantastic colleagues. But I'd say not one of us thought the transwoman was an actual woman or the transman was an actual man. Neither did they expect us to, they were getting on with their lives and jobs and so were we.

Patients... OK well here I am biassed but I work in a sex offender prison. I think I've said enough. They aren't women.

Outside of prison - where you used to see young adults with anorexia or self harm, now you see trans. First noticed it about 10 years ago.

Now they are scared of pronouns.

The human race is doomed

This made me laugh 😂

Reminds me of a friend from years ago. Said something similar. "We used to be scared of nuclear wars and went on marches but now my kids are scared of mad cow disease and refuse to go to McDonald's."

If they knew what the hell we were up to in the 80s their hair would turn grey. And if you told them what great grandma got up to in the blackout...

It’s exhausting and upsetting but I think My 21 year old is coming out the other end.

I do feel like there is a middle ground to be found somewhere if people are willing to respectfully discuss and debate, but only one side seems willing to do that...

It’s extremely difficult to lend any credence to “gen z articles” and suchlike, though - because they are so often patently wrong, as per the person who argued that trans women get murdered at far greater rates than women despite all the factual evidence in the U.K. being the reverse. It’s a kind of mass Gen Z delusion akin to Trumpist fake news. I spend a lot of time on gen z platforms, partly because of my job and partly through w hobby, and so much of these “articles” are fact-free nonsense, unfortunately.

One of my (female, taken in by the gender woo) students spent a long time trying to convince me that it was absolutely the case that the most discriminated-against population in this country are white teenage boys with “gender identity issues”, largely because some of her male friends have to “question their gender identity”. Totally impervious to actual fact about what real disadvantage is. I’m not sure how far it really is our job to humour these kinds of delusions, because it’s always been women’s work to indulge and humour people at our own expense. Even our own daughters. 😞

That’s completely different to sharing a changing room with a random bloke who
Identifies as a woman 3 days a week

Also I’m extremely bored of everyone under 21 simultaneously lecturing us that trans ppl ‘have existed for like ever boomer’ whilst also insisting we’re so old we don’t know any trans ppl because if we did we’d understand

Depends how you define biological sex. If it’s whether someone has XX or XY chromosomes then clearly this cannot ever be changed and can’t believe anyone could think otherwise when presented with the facts. It’s in our DNA. Not an expert but I recently had a blood test (I’m pregnant) where they analyse the DNA from the foetus as early as 10 weeks pregnant and can tell the sex of the baby I.e what chromosomes they have..pretty clever. But I don’t think science of yet clever enough to alter someone’s DNA. Pretty scary and stuff of science fiction if they discovered how to do that! Could you explain it this way? However, they might be (and am assuming they are) defining biological sex in some other way? Gender a different matter maybe?

They have trans friends but again, will know them and have established trust with them.

It is when they start mixing more generally with strangers without their familiar support group that they will start to realise why female spaces are so important.

Also, don't underestimate how important it is for kids to be seen as cooool, and how difficult to go against the herd. Noone wants to be the prude who won't share the bed with boys, noone wants to say anything unpopular and be excluded from the friendship group..... and if it starts to make them feel uncomfortable they will be extra militant about it to reassure themselves....

I wish we could teach kids about these things....

Yes, DD's don't understand why i would want a female space at all. They are quite comfortable in mixed company etc and have trans friends

Trans women who have physically changed sex

And in about 5 minutes someone will drop by to roll eyes at us and say "of course no trans people think that people change their sex, it's just you lot who mix things up"

My kids have tried this crap with me. I won't stand for it. No one is going to bloody lecture me on what a woman is, especially not my sons. I've stuck to my guns, made sure I know what I'm talking about, and been very vocal about where I stand and why. And they have shifted in their views, especially my youngest - he's a great deal less patronisingly woke now than a couple of years ago.

I think it's really important as a parent to provide a bedrock of reality, if that makes sense, and for kids to see that women are not there to be hectored and pushed around.

I won't let this issue drive a wedge between a mother and a daughter. exactly you will know best how to approach this and good relationships can weather differences too - it’s okay that she can express herself to you and better that she tells you and you can work through it, with compassion. They are young and I do think it’s quite a lot of issues, with an intense emotional aspect - even on this thread murders have been bought up - this is not an issue that seems debatable in calm rational terms often! And we are adults with experience. She isn’t.

@LadyOfLittleLeisure I am not really massively ‘in’ the trans debate either. I just speak from my own heart I think and because I had some free time (and admit I was bored) I read a few more threads in the feminism boards lately. I still don’t know what a TRA is and had to look up GC. So you are not alone!

Cis makes my teeth itch too, and to be honest no one I know where I live has a clue what it means. You can call yourself that if you want though. I’m just a woman and I am not going to be given a new name by anyone - so I’m never, ever going to refer to myself as that. That’s just me.

Anyway I was just going to say don’t worry if you are not ‘in’ with the debate - I am also not that up with it and wont’ be able to. I do get involved with safeguarding children and education, and focus on that, in a broad sense but also was quite worried when sex education packs from trans groups appeared in schools which had some serious safeguarding breaches. We all have our own areas.

In my day if was 'save the Whales' now it is 'save the middle aged man who identifies as a woman'...

...I’m a firm capitalist now, but still can’t comprehend how earlier generations thought it was acceptable to stream people by skin colour.

I actually think it’s to be admired that she’s getting worked up about a subject that seems to matter to her because she’s obviously thinking about injustice/fairness and being inclusive. Better that than obsessing about hair products and lip filler. My son has what I would call ‘interesting’ views on capitalism but at least he’s thinking about how we live our lives and the morality behind it rather than just getting hammered watching a sports game. Although they do those things too! My friend’s daughter has turned into an earnest vegan-but has made her parents far more tolerant of other people’s views-in fact, they get quite cross when their friends patronise her food choices. I remember being young and getting worked up about apartheid and Thatcherism-to the bemusement of older family members.

Send her some back if she does? Fair's fair, she can learn from your views and you hers. You can both at least learn what the opposite view is.

I'd go for a quid pro quo. You will read some of her articles if she will read some of yours.

I recommend these two:

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/26/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

www.google.com/amp/s/aeon.co/amp/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison