My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

Well if your philosophy is "be kind", where does that end? "Being kind" when women's rights are threatened has real downsides for women. There is a clash of rights here, no matter how much some people pretend there isn't, and real people are being harassed, threatened (JKR), arrested (Marion MIllar) losing jobs (Maya), scholarships (Selina Soule), sports participation, their dignity and safety (see: Karen White in prison etc).

I hate seeing how this battle is being played out

You and me both. But the trans side isn't campaigning for third spaces or separate accommodation, they are trying to take ours even when they are legally protected by the Equality Act, AND make us bow through fear, social pressure and intimidation to say or let go unchallenged things which we do not believe are true - like that the definition of women includes anyone who says they are or feel like or "live as" a woman, however fleetingly that may be, and however rankly stereotypically they define such things. The result of that definitional change is rampant and has implications for every single place in law and policy where the word "woman" is used.

I will happily use someone's chosen name and acknowledge they have changed their gender - not their sex. I don't think transpeople should be discriminated against for jobs, housing, study, travel, in access to justice or services. But I will not accept changing the definition of "women" to the extent than women's rights and discrimination against women which is on the basis of our biology can no longer be defined or protected.

You are not old OP. Your daughter is rude.

Ask her if she has a friend who is wanting to "change sex". That could be why she takes it so personally.

Yep been there, just like TiltTopTable

Apparently I'm a bigot for simply believing in Biology and that biological women should have access to safe spaces just for biological women.

This from a DD who has an A level in Biology and has studied anatomy & physiology at uni.

I would cut your DD more slack, too. My children and their friends are all extremely pro trans rights and we can't just write off a generation as unthinking because of that.

For what it's worth, I wholly believe that one cannot change sex and cannot abide attempts to remove the word "woman" from the language. However, one can most certainly change gender and for me, the debate is rather more nuanced than Maya Forstater's words would indicate.

Have tried very hard to phrase that correctly because I know that there are some passionate views here!

🤣😂🤣 Sex on a spectrum. Chromosomes on a spectrum 😂🤣😂

I got a chromosome test on my son for downs Edwards and Patau's syndrome. It told me his sex as well. It says Male. It didn't say slightly male but leaning towards female 😂🤣😂🤣

Tiktok is not a reliable source of education for ignorant young people.

I suggest you and your daughter sit down together at a screen and do some research on intersex .

Very, very few transexuals have variant chromosomes, and even fewer are intersex.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Maybe try asking your DD some of the questions here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4168284-Staniland-Question-is-so-good-Can-we-think-of-others

I think I'd tell her I was disappointed with her ageism.

bi, they’ll have their own families and conform like the rest of us did. At the moment though gender politics is a massive hit potato and if my opinions were upsetting my child I’d just keep my mouth shut about it in their company.

My 19 year old tried to mansplain that I was a Terf to me. He got educated that evening.

The issue I guess is that of his primary school class of 30, 3 have come out as trans, 2 M to F and one F to M. All lovely kids, my view from being in their company a fair bit is that 2 of them are probably gay and one has always had gender identity issues (not that it's just down to what I observe though!) I remember DS coming home from school at age 5 and telling me that x child just isn't like the other boys but unable to really articulate why.

None of these kids are scary or activists or doing anything other than trying to lead their lives. That's what he sees as trans and therefore can't get what the fuss is about. I'm telling him it's not about the individual people and that the fact he has lived a male experience growing up means that despite having a woman for a mother and a girlfriend and speaking to girls at school, he really doesn't have the lived experience of a woman...

He is honestly a lovely lad and I'm sure will grow out of it....

godmum56
I think that this is another one of those times in history where the whole of society is grappling with new concepts and having to work through new ideas. ...difficult for all of us but especially difficult for teens.

cakedays
"Equally, there are plenty of times in history where societies have been gripped by silly ideas, and it’s taken a while to shake them out again.

This looks more like one of those times."

yes and time will tell which it is.....

Honestly believe most of these kids will come out the other side of this as long as they’re not medicated/operated upon. I do believe there are some of them who firmly believe they were born in the wrong body. Back in the day those children we called homosexuals, now they are straight but in the wrong body. Then they’ll be a smaller portion who have gender dysphoria and they will live their whole lives as their preferred sex and feel much better for doing so. The majority though will just be a normal citizen who navigates life as straight or

Oh this reminds me of a conversation DH and I were having on this subject a few weeks ago.

I was explaining to him about the schools consultation on the new PHSE curriculum and why we needed to ask questions about the materials and what they're being taught on this specific subject. He hadn't even considered it and we had a long chat about the erosions on (biological) women's rights/safe spaces and got into the topic of sports etc. I was pleased, I managed to have a sensible conversation with someone who'd never even considered any of this and he agreed wholeheartedly with me (my view being that every human is entitled to live their lives at they please, free from discrimination and harassment however surgery/hormones/clothes/feelings do not change your biological sex and people shouldn't be forced to say otherwise). DH couldn't understand why this was a controversial view.

Then we both said 'oh bloody hell, by the time our girls are old enough for this to be an issue they're going to think we're ignorant old people like we used to with our parents about things, aren't they!' We actually said ignorant old people.

Our daughters are 5 and 2 so I hope by the time they're old enough to understand about all this a more sensible message abounds. Be kind should apply to everyone, and it's not kind to remove safe spaces, erase rights and make sports unsafe for biological women.

OP teenagers thinking their parents are clueless fuddy duddies is a problem as old as time I think. Your daughter shouldn't have been rude to you, I'd be really cross. But I expect I'd have said the same to my mother at 17/18 (and have received a flea in the ear for it too!). I still hugely disagree with my Dad about things (Brexit, mostly) but am able to discuss things with respect and maturity and agree to disagree. I'm 37 though!

chromosomal spectrum

Oh ffs whatever next 🙄

If my daugheter started crying over something like that I'd assume she or someone close to her is having issues and she's upset oyu're thinking the same way that biased people she/her friend has had to deal with. The people laughing at her and saying 'angsty teens' need to have words with themselves

@Reallyreallyborednow - My DS13 believes you're either male or female and there is no changing that no matter how you identify. He wouldn't be rude to someone but believes in biology and science at the end of the day

My DD is now a university student, but was very similar pre-university. I later discovered that one of her close male friends transitioned prior to starting university. I think she was really upset about it all, although she wanted to be accepting that TWAW, and me pointing out scientific facts to her was just too much! I still don't discuss the subject with her, but I do think that as she's maturing, she does see my view might have a point, although she wouldn't yet admit it.

3 years farting about at university studying philosophy - how fortunate to have that luxury. Perhaps she may even learn to tolerate facts that she doesn't like without chucking the toys or making sillybitch ageist comments.

Just ignore. She's leaving soon and I bet you're quite glad!