Plain English, Gender and compromise

A colleague recently told us that it is incorrect for the term 'pregnant women' to be used- it should be 'pregnant people'. So frustrating to hear a woman saying this.

Thinking a bit more about the dogwhistle thing - it really makes sense and it making me quite cross.

Let's say that I get a reminder to book a smear test, but I have experienced trauma in my past and I am quite anxious. If the letter refers to "women" then I would feel comfortable and safe to request clear confirmation that the exam would be carried out by a female practitioner.

But if the same letter references "people with a cervix" - what then? The organisation is making it clear not just that it is aware of sex vs gender, but that it is advocating for gender to take preference over sex. How comfortable do I feel now about insisting on female-only care? A lot bloody less comfortable.

The more I understand this the angrier I am getting.

It enrages me that so many women are so bloody meek, passive and willing to compromise. To be complicit in their own erasure.
The only sane response to the TRAs attempts to invade our spaces and render our language meaningless is “Fuck off. We’re not having it.”

And the 'honing in' on what language is used is irrelevant here because it's really about the semiotics, the signal it sends to the audience.
Menstruaters, bleeders or whatever you like isn't a benign word. It's a word used to signal adherence to gender ideology and therefore hostility to gender critical ideology. It is a signal that everything Stonewall approves of is fine and dandy and endorsed.

What a sharp observation. You are absolutely spot on - when I see this language it does feel hostile to me. Its not just that it is dehumanising and confusing, it is also signalling that my own beliefs are wrong and unwelcome.

Thank you for putting in to words something that I haven't been able to.

Changing the language is an absolute nonsense. Really it is just confined to a few companies and charities brandishing their woke credentials and in areas of law and the NHS. Which is bad enough, especially in areas that impact on health.

Menstruators, anyone with a cervix?
It's ridiculous. There are enough people with English as a mother tongue who won't know what the hell they are talking about. For anyone with limited understanding of English it's a disaster.
I don't speak any other language and failed my French O level miserably. But I know what man and woman are in French, German Spanish and Italian and Latin. I certainly don't know the words for cervix, uterus, vulva or menstruation in any of those languages. It's really disgracefully exclusionary when we live in a multicultural country.

Why are they bothering though? It will never catch on with the wider public. Do they think they can banish all gendered language wherever it arises? Most of literature would just have to be binned.

Children's stories? Imagine Charlie and the chocolate factory. Charlie (a name that could apply to either sex) was a skinny young person. Charlie lived with six older people, their non birthing parent and birthing parent and the non birthing parents and birthing parents of the younger non birthing parent and birthing parent.

A gender neutral Madam Bovary or Anna Karenina?

We should push back where we see it and point out how inappropriate it is, especially in areas of law and health.
But beyond that let's treat it as the silly bad joke that it is.

Very sorry about your health Snugglepumpkin , you sound strong and independent, I hope your great attitude sees you through the tough times.

Oh snuggle that's so difficult for you. My ds is in primary and I know he's going to change massively in a few years. To not have an internal image to rely on is a biological cruelty
I was going to raise the casual use of going for a walk when many can't. But I can see my dc so I'm going to shut up and count my blessings.

don't expect the world to hide all cameras, ban cars, close things like art galleries in case it hurts my feelings I can't see the exhibits, cancel all theatre, except on the radio so I don't feel like I'm missing out, outlaw ballet making it a hate crime because it's not fair I can no longer see it & pretend nobody else can visualise things just because I desperately wish to keep being one of the sighted or at least someone who can see pictures in their head.
I shall never call people sightphobic because they know what their children look like like & they might say something like 'he's growing up to be a good looking young man' about their son.
I'm just adjusting my home as best I can so that I can be safe & have the best life I can when I get to that point.
I won't be able to see it, but if I get everything I hope to get done completed, I will know that it is/was my definition of a beautiful home.
It's my problem not everyone elses to deal with & I have no right to expect the world to reshape itself to fit my particular needs which will no longer be those of the majority.

You don't, because you're a decent, reasonable person who doesn't think their experiences and feelings trump everyone else's experience, feelings and rights. That's the difference.

Sorry to hear about your condition

Yes, if you want to term it that way, that is my line in the sand.

As a society we have to fit in.
Society makes some things a little easier (like the markings on the ground near traffic lights to help blind people) but for the most part we have to compromise to fit in with society & not the other way round.

I'm losing my sight.
I also have Aphantasia so once I can't see pictures or see my son in front of me, I will no longer be able to picture his face.
I will almost certainly never know what he looks like as an adult as he is still in primary school.
No amount of staring at him now will leave me with an image in my head.

I don't expect the world to hide all cameras, ban cars, close things like art galleries in case it hurts my feelings I can't see the exhibits, cancel all theatre, except on the radio so I don't feel like I'm missing out, outlaw ballet making it a hate crime because it's not fair I can no longer see it & pretend nobody else can visualise things just because I desperately wish to keep being one of the sighted or at least someone who can see pictures in their head.
I shall never call people sightphobic because they know what their children look like like & they might say something like 'he's growing up to be a good looking young man' about their son.
I'm just adjusting my home as best I can so that I can be safe & have the best life I can when I get to that point.
I won't be able to see it, but if I get everything I hope to get done completed, I will know that it is/was my definition of a beautiful home.
It's my problem not everyone elses to deal with & I have no right to expect the world to reshape itself to fit my particular needs which will no longer be those of the majority.

I wish no harm to transpeople, but it is not womens responsibility or even societies to actively include transwomen in the world of women & trying to do so can cause harm.
They are part of a completely different biological world that is a subset of men & it never intersects with being a woman.

Changing language on a couple of obviously female products does nothing for transmen because whatever you call it, they know damn well they are only buying a tampon or a pad because they are having a period.
It is not possible to have a sex neutral word for a period because whatever you call it, it will retain the same definition & it is something only womens bodies can ever have happen to them.

Whatever that word is, it simply doesn't have the same impact on a persons life as experiencing menstruation which is so much more than just the bit of blood soaked up by sanitary products.

Everybody knows that men can't get period pains.
I've just checked my medicine cabinet & I have paracetamol, ibuprofen & co-codamol in there (don't have any aspirin to check) all of which list period pains on the box as one of the pains they can provide mild to moderate relief from.
Are you suggesting transmen or other women who call themselves something other than women don't buy them because they mention periods?
What word is more inclusive of the people who are seeking relief from period pain is there than the ones currently used?

I've seen the same thing mentioned on product pages advertising hot water bottles - are you saying hot water bottles are transphobic for mentioning one of their uses?

The effects of womens lived reality on womens lives goes far beyond tampons & folic acid (which mentions conception & pregnancy on it.)
Women need to know that it may be a good idea to take folic acid if they are trying to conceive or are pregnant.

What about specific vitamin products aimed at men & women?
We have different vitamin & mineral requirements for our very different bodies.
Men & transwomen (& anyone else born male whatever they are calling themselves) don't need as much iron as women do for instance.
Iron poisoning can lead to organ failure or death.
A young boy (or even an adult male if he takes enough) taking female vitamins supplements at the correct dose for a woman over an extended period of time could potentially cause serious harm to his body if he wishes to become a transwoman & has been fed the lie that he will actually become a real woman.
Do you want to kill young transwomen by feeding them this sort of misinformation?

Our biochemistry is not inclusive.

Compromising on the truth helps nobody at all.

I think “women” is enough. At a push, “women and other females” but, quite frankly, that sounds daft. I have no ides what it says on my various Sanpro products because I only look at them to check the absorption.

I simply don’t believe that all this mangling of language is done to help transmen. As said above, it’s to control the narrative and try to take our words or make them forbidden to say.

Diluting the words used is an attempt to promote the idea that there are lots of kinds of women. Personally, I’d put a note in the leaflet explains that the word “women” refers to all women no matter how they choose to identify and that they are all valued customers, or some such polite phrasing.

Another thing that could be done is to have a second smaller Sanpro section in a neutral type place in the shop.

I don't want to lose the meaning of the word "woman" but in the meantime could we not use female?

@AdHominemNonSequitur

Very true. Control of language is so dangerous.

Well I'm I'm one of the people who is hard line about language and I do find it offensive. I'd happily share toilets with trans women, but the obfuscation of language is a well documented control tactic in queer theory texts. It's not about inclusion at all, it is a deliberate attempt to manipulate the narrative and construct a new reality. That half of the congregation don't know the ecumenical underpinning of the method s being used is irrelevant.

Besides, all the soul searching being done about what language would be acceptable to everyone and you know what they will stay... TWAW you bigots. We have perfectly good words already.

AFAB is awful. Biological sex is not assigned, it's observed.

@Totallyrandomname

Yep. And where are all these hoards of transmen having periods and babies who need protecting from words?

“I am confident that female transgender individuals have the ability to learn to manage their unwanted female biology without forcing this language change on all of us. And many of those I know and know of say that the language change doesn't help with their dysphoria, so I would honestly question who really benefits from uncoupling the word woman from female biology.”

Yes I agree with this totally especially when it comes to things like childbirth and mensuration. If you’re a trans man giving birth to a baby or menstrating surely that physical reminder of your biological sex is immensely more of an issue than seeing signs/publications saying word like mother or woman (as presumably their preferred words would be used by professionals working with them). If your a transwoman then I’m not sure language, especially around biological women specific issues, should be adapted for you if the women to whom they are relevant are happy with those words.

This agenda is not being driven by transmen.

YY.