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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex

232 replies

CloudyMoment · 10/06/2021 17:50

It's just a rant really, but also fishing for possible counter-arguments.

I thought that nobody really properly argues against the fact that sex is something you are born with, and that his cannot be changed.

Apparently those people think sex is not immutable. That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life. I tried arguing against, that we are still born with a coded expression hair or eye colour, and that this does not change. I feel that this is very much a philosophical discussion to be had.. but meanwhile. How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

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Iamhangingin · 10/06/2021 19:55

My son was born with a birth defect which means he has a-typical genitalia. Which is a condition obviously that only effects boys. It doesn't mean sex is a spectrum or complicated, it's just sometimes during pregnancy things go wrong (in my case around the 12 week mark and sex is decided at the point the egg is fertilised). A chromosomal abnormality is just that, an abnormality not a 3rd sex.

Ann Boyle was born with an extra finger. I don't think anyone has argued this is proof that human hands are a spectrum with any number of finger options. It seems unbelievably cruel to be using terms like intersex and using these conditions to argue ideological points.

My son is now going through puberty and I'm horrified he might be exposed to this and the impact on his body image. I really feel for other parents who's children have complex medical issues, I can't imagine how upsetting the appropriation of DSD conditions (and the adding of I to LGBT) is for their families.

heathspeedwell · 10/06/2021 19:54

There have been quite a few cases of men with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome who had surgery on their undescended testicles and then fathered children.

Erik Schinegger is possibly one of the most famous examples. Claiming that insensitivity to androgens makes someone female is a massive oversimplification.

Generally I think unless you have a DSD or you're a medical professional it is inappropriate to bring up these incredibly rare medical conditions. They are nothing to do with gender.

LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour · 10/06/2021 19:52

@NoHunGosh

Erm... Babies? Anyone ever heard of any male animal suddenly growing ovaries and uterus?
It's possible to have XY chromosomes and a uterus.
AnyOldPrion · 10/06/2021 19:44

@theresstardustinmyhead

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

They appear female, externally.

They have testicles internally.

They absolutely should have the right to be whichever legal sex they feel matches them best, but in the scientific sense, they are male because they have testes.

Waitwhat23 · 10/06/2021 19:41

@heathspeedwell I also have PCOS and find it astounding that some people believe having an endocrine disorder which specifically affects females makes us 'intersex'. The idiocy is jaw dropping.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/06/2021 19:39

@Deliriumoftheendless

I saw on Octonauts this jellyfish that became young again if it was scared, effectively making it immortal. I’ve seen loads of horror films and look young for my age, am I going to live forever, Mishy? That’s also cool.
“Lols”
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/06/2021 19:38

Regarding intersex...

extract

The persistent online othering of intersex people

There is now a narrative that is continually repeated on social media, that states intersex people are neither male or female or a third, fourth or even fifth sex. This is frequently repeated by people with no experience of intersex issues and these messages often include inaccurate information about our lives and bodies and frequently include discussions of our genitals, even referring to us as having “both sets of genitals”. When trying to correct these misrepresentations, I am frequently dismissed, blocked or called transphobic. It frequently feels that I have become nothing more than an interesting anecdote someone has learned about in a gender studies lecture – and they have not considered that people like me really exist & should be offered the same respect as everyone else. We should not have our lives weaponised and used as part of a thesis, especially by people who have no interest in listening to our voices and will immediately block us on social media, if we do not agree with their analysis of our bodies.

I agree that we have complex biological variations that do not sit neatly into binary boxes – and this can be incredibly distressing and isolating for newly diagnosed children and families. People talk about intersex people being as common as red hair, but in reality, it is only a tiny number of children and families who are facing these really complex issues. In the UK, only around 150 children are diagnosed with a difference in their sex development each year, which means there is unlikely to be another parent in your NCT group experiencing the same issues – and there is unlikely to be another child in your school or sometimes even in your town. Parents frequently feel terrified and alone – and the othering language that is persistently used to describe their children, is likely to only increase their feelings of isolation. If children with different sex development are to grow up without stigma, secrecy and shame, we need to ensure that their parents are well supported and treated with compassion and sensitivity. By supporting parents, we are giving them the best chance to be positive advocates for their children.

There are now numerous guides for schools that talk about the best practice for supporting transgender young people. These all talk about the trauma of being misgendered or the pain that can be caused by not respecting pronouns. We are told that not affirming someone’s gender is an act of violence and can lead to young people attempting suicide. The latest advice from Stonewall also talks about “listening to the child or young person and following their lead and preferences”. The Trans Inclusion Toolkit from Allsorts states “Follow the lead of the child, young person and if appropriate their family”.

It is hard to understand why people promoting these guides on how to best support trans young people, do not share the same empathy for children & young people with different sex development. One recent comment stated that those of us arguing that it is wrong to force a third sex narrative onto all intersex people, have a “fear of being othered away from our female safety nets”. This seemed to dismiss any of the trauma & real loss that many intersex women have experienced. Born and raised as girls and then finding out as young teens that they could not have children & could have difficulty having sex due to lack of vaginal depth – as well as finding out about your chromosomes and internal testes. You do feel ripped away from everything you thought was true about yourself. It takes time to process this and grieve for these very real losses, before being able to put yourself back together again in a way that you can feel positive about living with a different body. This can take time and patience and it is essential that anyone working with children and families facing these issues, is able to be compassionate and sensitive to their needs. The current trend to other intersex people as a third sex or neither male or female, offers newly diagnosed children & families, none of the same empathy and understanding that is considered vitally important when supporting young people with gender dysphoria. Information sent to schools, often includes the Genderbread Person or Gender Unicorn, which has intersex listed as a third sex, alongside ‘other’. The Allsorts Toolkit references intersex, although the information they provide is misleading and even inaccurately implies that many intersex people transition as they have been misdiagnosed in infancy.

Continues: differently-normal.com/

RockPainting · 10/06/2021 19:35

We have some beautiful irises in our garden. They’re in a really bad spot, so you can hardly see them. The other night DH and I went over to look at them. There were LOADS of bees everywhere. Merrily buzzing around the irises, diving into the flowers and quite humorously reversing out.

That was PLANT SEX right there. There are male and female parts of plants. There’s no ‘identifying’ going on, no special ‘feels’.

Ever asked a dog breeder what their dogs and bitches identify as?

teawamutu · 10/06/2021 19:30

@theresstardustinmyhead

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

I don't think anyone is dismissing their reality - as you say, it's a medical condition and affects females.

The TRA lot try to use this to argue that males who wish to become women, can. When it proves nothing more than sometimes human development goes wrong and makes life difficult for individuals.

Clymene · 10/06/2021 19:29

Sorry soontobe60 you are of course quite right. What I meant is that well over 99% are unequivocally, beyond doubt, male or female.

justawoman76 · 10/06/2021 19:28

DSDs make up 0.018% of all live births.

And yet again they have been dragged into this ridiculous argument.
There is NO third sex.

Karotyping can now prove which sex group one belongs to.
And the incidence of DSDs in the trans population has been shown to be no higher than the general population.

How many more times is this ridiculous argument going to be proffered as some kind of 'proof'?

somethinginoffensive · 10/06/2021 19:26

You are talking about people who are chromosomally male, but externally phenotypically female, not people who can change sex.

I know someone with this condition. It doesn't mean it's possible to change sex.

Deliriumoftheendless · 10/06/2021 19:25

I saw on Octonauts this jellyfish that became young again if it was scared, effectively making it immortal. I’ve seen loads of horror films and look young for my age, am I going to live forever, Mishy?
That’s also cool.

merrymouse · 10/06/2021 19:24

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

You are talking about people who are chromosomally male, but externally phenotypically female, not people who can change sex.

heathspeedwell · 10/06/2021 19:23

Why is it that people with differences of sexual development are so often brought up by people trying to claim a scientific basis for gender ideology?

I've had transwomen try to claim that I'm 'intersex' because I have PCOS. It's not a DSD, for anyone who is wondering. There's a name for people with ovaries and its women.

This attempt to muddle the water does no favours for the brave people like ClaireCAIS who are living with a DSD.

somethinginoffensive · 10/06/2021 19:22

Only one side of this debate needs to educate itself, and it isn’t us.

Grin
jellybeansforbreakfast · 10/06/2021 19:22

@theresstardustinmyhead

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

Nobody is dismissing anyone with D/VSDs. There are two(?) occasional posters here whose usernames make it clear they have personal experience and are very, very clear and detailed with their information. I had thought I had a good grasp of the basics until reading a few posts by ClaireCAIS.

And we have all read the NHS page I would imagine. It is often suggested and never contains the information we are led to believe it does. All Mishy actually said was that sex is binary but has a few rare variations along the way - something most GC women posting here understand, believe and have discussed or read about here before!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/06/2021 19:22

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female.

They have developed more along the pathway to producing female gametes (ova) than male ones (sperm). It's still a medical disorder of sex development. It doesn't nullify the sex binary, because there are only two biological sex roles.

CardinalLolzy · 10/06/2021 19:21

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking

I also have a relative with a DSD. One that TRAs are constantly using to "prove" that sex is a spectrum and therefore this disorder makes him less male and more female than men without this disorder. I find it really offensive tbh.

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 19:19

Claire said that as there were fewer than 25 people in the UK who were openly living with a VSD, this was unlikely.

That sounds far too low to me. Citation? Maybe one specific VSD?

But the "25 people in my youth group with a VSD" is utter nonsense in the other direction. That's just illustrating how often trans people claim to have intersex conditions to justify their identity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/06/2021 19:17

Folk. It's odd and I can't pinpoint why.

It's twee.

jellybeansforbreakfast · 10/06/2021 19:16

@PermanentTemporary

There was a riveting tweet by ClaireCAIS the other day in a conversation with a nice youngster who said there were 25 people with VSDs in a youth group she went to. Claire said that as there were fewer than 25 people in the UK who were openly living with a VSD, this was unlikely.

Numbers are also science...

I missed that. Claire is usually very clear and succinct. Not easy to misunderstand, even when she explains the heavy science!

I can only imagine the weighty silence after that response...

theresstardustinmyhead · 10/06/2021 19:15

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

merrymouse · 10/06/2021 19:15

To some people, belief in a man who could and did produce more fish is a protected belief.
Amen.

Yeah. I think he is supposed to have used a different method.

😁

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 19:13

Being infertile doesn't change the category you belong to.

Well, you're either an infertile male or an infertile female. It will either be a male system or female system that's not working.

Which sex you are would determine the nature of the treatment...

When you repair a broken clock, you get a clock. When you repair a broken motorcycle, you get a motorcycle.

A broken clock is not a motorcycle, broken or otherwise.