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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex

232 replies

CloudyMoment · 10/06/2021 17:50

It's just a rant really, but also fishing for possible counter-arguments.

I thought that nobody really properly argues against the fact that sex is something you are born with, and that his cannot be changed.

Apparently those people think sex is not immutable. That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life. I tried arguing against, that we are still born with a coded expression hair or eye colour, and that this does not change. I feel that this is very much a philosophical discussion to be had.. but meanwhile. How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

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Deux · 10/06/2021 21:46

How about how human embryos can have a cell removed in vitro, such as preimplantation diagnosis, and that cell can be analysed for binary sex chromosomes?

Whythesadface · 10/06/2021 21:40

So why when there is a skeleton found is DNA take and the Police start by saying it is either a male or a female.
I have never heard them say we have a Transwoman or Transman whom we can't identify,
Once they have researched they may say the deceased identified as.....

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/06/2021 21:34

@MishyJDI, @MishyJDI
where are youuuuuuu???

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 10/06/2021 21:20

You can't argue with stupid or faith, ask them about the other gametes

I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex
midgedude · 10/06/2021 21:16

@NecessaryScene

Do you know which slit that photon went through? No? Right, then how can you say whether someone is male or female? Huh?
If it went through it's an outtie so even if we don't know which slit , we know its sex?
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/06/2021 21:07

Ooh! It did, didn't it? 😁

Deliriumoftheendless · 10/06/2021 21:04

@NecessaryScene

Could be worse. They could be saying people can change sex due to quantum effects.
Hey! That worked for Sam Beckett at least once!
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/06/2021 21:04

Mere physiologist here, worse a multidisciplinarian in exercise science. I'll take a seat if there's room.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/06/2021 21:00

@titchy

It's possible to have XY chromosomes and a uterus

Yes and such people are female. The Y doesn't work usually because it's on the wrong part of the chromosome.

You really should stop knowing such stuff.

Just as people who make such statements as the one you were responding to should stop, as they are misinformed and are appropriating a rare condition to shore up a weak point. It's really unpleasant.

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 20:53

Do you know which slit that photon went through? No? Right, then how can you say whether someone is male or female? Huh?

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 20:52

Could be worse. They could be saying people can change sex due to quantum effects.

334bu · 10/06/2021 20:50

Hope the scientists can stop laughing long enough to explain human biology to these poor deluded people.

Thelnebriati · 10/06/2021 20:47

There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex.

Sex-changing fish are usually sequential hermaphrodites.

Harrydresdenssidekick · 10/06/2021 20:46

Any room for another biochemist?

TheElementsSong · 10/06/2021 20:35

Did somebody call for an actual molecular biologist?

WarriorN · 10/06/2021 20:20

We had a quartet of female hens; one decided to be boss and attempted to crow but didn't change sex (it's very different in birds though.)

WarriorN · 10/06/2021 20:19

Non invasive prenatal tests can test the dna in the mother's blood and determine the sex and also any specific trisomies that cause severe incompatible with life issues, and are often types of intersex. Consequently, you have to agree to know the sex of the child to test for those specific conditions.

This test can be done as early as 11 weeks gestation. So the foetus has been alive for barely 7/8 weeks.

It's sex then is the sex it will be when born. If it wasn't, you'd know there's an issue with the sry gene that hasn't been able to communicate the dna sex to the bodie's cells.

I don't fully understand the question but it's an example of sex in dna from conception.

Naunet · 10/06/2021 20:19

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

I'm in a Facebook group of people who love nature and it's got a specific scientific slant / interest. Scrolling through posts from a couple of years ago I noticed someone had posted something about how some lionesses grew manes in the absence of a male, and someone followed this by saying their hamster had been female but had spontaneously grown testicles and fathered some baby hamsters! As in produced sperm and mated with the other female.

Noone in the group questioned this.

A group of self proclaimed scientific people.

If the posts weren't years old I'd have challenged them, but I felt bigoted for thinking about trying after the event.

I’m not sure if you were questioning the lioness part of that, or not, but if you were, that bit is true, well partly. There is a group of lionesses that grew manes, and behaved more like males. However, they don’t know the reason for this (so not because there’s no males around), and think it could be an evolutionary thing, or it could just be a hormone imbalance. It’s fascinating though, I think there’s a few videos about it on YouTube.
Igneococcus · 10/06/2021 20:17

Another actual biologist here, is there space on your bench? donquixotedelamancha

CandyLeBonBon · 10/06/2021 20:15

My dp was born without a hand. It's a rare congenital complication. He's still a human though. Not some otherwise unknown species with just one hand.

Sometimes our 'code' goes wrong. There are still only two sexes. And one Homo sapiens.

donquixotedelamancha · 10/06/2021 20:09

How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

Open any Biology textbook? Seriously though, why bother. It's as daft as those who think 'science' shows vaccines are bad or Psychics can 'read energy'. They don't have the basic understanding for you to argue coherently with.

Don’t, whatever you do, talk to actual biologists or psychologists currently working on the subjects of sex or gender. They are obviously interested in maintaining the trans-friendly status quo, and their testimony can be ignored.

@MishyJDI Actual biochemist here, will I do? I'll be happy to discuss the science. Don't worry about showing off your expertise, I'll let you know if I get lost.

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 20:05

Ann Boyle was born with an extra finger. I don't think anyone has argued this is proof that human hands are a spectrum with any number of finger options.

Or that she wasn't human, or that humans can grow extra fingers after birth.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/06/2021 20:02

@Iamhangingin

My son was born with a birth defect which means he has a-typical genitalia. Which is a condition obviously that only effects boys. It doesn't mean sex is a spectrum or complicated, it's just sometimes during pregnancy things go wrong (in my case around the 12 week mark and sex is decided at the point the egg is fertilised). A chromosomal abnormality is just that, an abnormality not a 3rd sex.

Ann Boyle was born with an extra finger. I don't think anyone has argued this is proof that human hands are a spectrum with any number of finger options. It seems unbelievably cruel to be using terms like intersex and using these conditions to argue ideological points.

My son is now going through puberty and I'm horrified he might be exposed to this and the impact on his body image. I really feel for other parents who's children have complex medical issues, I can't imagine how upsetting the appropriation of DSD conditions (and the adding of I to LGBT) is for their families.

Excellent point. Thank you for sharing your experience and point of view. It’s a much needed aspect to this discussion.
titchy · 10/06/2021 19:55

It's possible to have XY chromosomes and a uterus

Yes and such people are female. The Y doesn't work usually because it's on the wrong part of the chromosome.