Can people really not see the relationship

Yes, but I also recently heard of another view by a detransitioner who was discussing with Watson on a YouTube video, that it was also the scene painted by feminism that the patriarchy was shit to women, and that being a woman meant you were discriminated against and more likely to be raped, harmed, struggle in life. Clearly actual experiences also contributed. But it was also as if the messages she received from feminism also solidified her rejection of being female.

There's also a new sexuality called febfem.

Bisexual women who have chosen to give up being with men. Are attracted to men but choose never to date them, due to a range of reasons. I don't blame them.

Somehow quoted completely the wrong post there. Was talking about boys wanting be girls, obviously.

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@WinterTrees the Guardian is rubbish too (the cooking parts are OK though) but having DM and Express on your side on a fight is like having Joseph Fritzl agreeing with you on the merits of basements.[/quote]
That's just ridiculous - and offensive

But then why would boys want to be girls?
I expect boys who want to be girls haven't been on the receiving end of it.

Harassment is either invisible to adult men, or they do it because they find it enjoyable.
I wouldn't expect children to have a more nuanced or mature idea of how harassment is experienced by the intended victim than adults do.

Yes, the Finnish study does not explicitly say that sexual abuse/trauma/an increasingly pornified society is directly linked to a trans identity particularly in teenage girls.

Two things to bear in mind, however.

The study comprises a retrospective chart review of all the SR applicants attending for assessment by one of the two adolescent gender identity services in Finland (Tampere University Hospital, Department of Adolescent Psychiatry) in 2011–2013.

The study was published in 2015. These kids were in the Finnish Gids - equivalent system from 2011-13. I would argue that porn and young people's access to it/smartphone use is far more ubiquitous now than back in 2015, let alone 2011. Pornhub, for example, only started in 2007.

The study does also find evidence of enormous amounts of bullying - we are not entirely sure how this was expressed and on what basis - but we know teenagers are frequently bullied for their sexuality, sexual orientation and gender expression as mentioned in the study. And what is bullying if not abuse?

It really is not a massive psychological leap or tin hattery to suggest that a girl may 'opt out' of womanhood for any number of reasons and decide on a male identity as a protective mechanism.

Another vote for the 'break it down for me' thread where there are loads of links to explore.

i'm going to disagree with you on that because i cant find any except from rightwing newspapers!!

No. There are studies. Look at Sweden, Finland and Australia. Probably even Nederlands since Dr Steensma who authored one of the original treatment reports which so much of the current treatment path has been based on has recently stated the current female cohort is quite different and the treatment program may not be appropriate. Pretty sure he mentions how large the increases are too.

There are threads with so much of this information on here on MN.

A great place to look is the Break it down thread. Lots of studies linked up there.

I see it.

i don't see anything on OP's original argument that abuse leads to more likelihood of going trans but it's an interesting study nonetheless.

This is a 2015 open access Finnish study with a lot of detail on comorbidities with gender dysphoria in teenagers, so depression, anxiety, self-harm, OCD, eating disorders, higher than expected numbers from care system plus 26% of patients having ASD diagnosis, ADHD etc.
References the huge increase in numbers and also surprise at sex ratio.
capmh.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13034-015-0042-y

Two years of gender identity service for minors: overrepresentation of natal girls with severe problems in adolescent development
Riittakerttu Kaltiala-Heino, Maria Sumia, […]Nina Lindberg
Child and Adolescent Psychiatry and Mental Health volume 9, Article number: 9 (2015)

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@WinterTrees the Guardian is rubbish too (the cooking parts are OK though) but having DM and Express on your side on a fight is like having Joseph Fritzl agreeing with you on the merits of basements.[/quote]
That's a pretty distasteful analogy.

A few years ago I would have agreed with the point you're making, but since the newspapers I used to trust utterly failed to even acknowledge fundamental women's rights issues I'm far less unquestioningly tribal in the news sources I read.

the 4000% sounds specific

The tavistock stats are not unusual. There are other countries with large elevations in numbers of teenaged girls attending gender clinics. The statistics not hard to find.

@WinterTrees the Guardian is rubbish too (the cooking parts are OK though) but having DM and Express on your side on a fight is like having Joseph Fritzl agreeing with you on the merits of basements.

Sadly the Tavistock study itself ended up being very small with hardly any follow up or long term.follow up they failed to produce it in time.for the court case too then revealed it after

also DM and Express are sexist rags

It was never done. Penny mordant never followed through

thanks for the links!! i dont see an investigation though and i dont think the DM, Times and Express are really that scientific in the way they discuss things. a rise from 2009 could as easily be attributed to more liberal attitudes towards transsexuals, more access to internet etc. that was a common one in the 80s too...that there was more lesbians and gays now because it was trendy, when in fact we were just hiding in plain sight.

As i said happy to be corrected but half of the arguments to this seem based on flimsy reasoning. i think a well-funded study needs to be done (maybe possible now??)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inquiry-into-surge-in-gender-treatment-ordered-by-penny-mordaunt-b2ftz9hfn

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6897269/amp/Workers-transgender-clinic-quit-concerns-unregulated-live-experiments-children.html

dee

A couple of newspaper articles about the 4000% increase. Think the Telegraph article is paywalled but the Express should be readable?

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/16/minister-orders-inquiry-4000-per-cent-rise-children-wanting/

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1018407/gender-transition-treatment-investigation-penny-mordaunt

ty

Oops didn’t finish.

Particularly those who are questioning their sexual orientation? Thanks to the wonders of the internet and porn and many other factors that are very different from the 80s, I am not sure your comparison is correct.

As you say, some in-depth studies would be great. A pity they were deemed hateful and shut down until recently. Another effect of no debate.