Nicole Smallman and Bibaa - man accused of their killing in court

I didn't know that their friends had found their bodies. So many horrific details to this case. Absolutely heartbreaking.

Just to clear up some of the mental illness stuff. In English law, if a defendant is mentally ill that alone doesn't mean he is not guilty of murder. Dennis Nielsen was most likely mentally ill, but he was still guilty. The standard in English law is a very high threshold to pass - in order to have a partial defence to murder by reason of insanity the defendant must have been so mentally ill he didn't appreciate the nature and quality of the act.

There was a case a while ago where a guy had delusions that god told him to kill people. He knew killing was wrong, and knew he was killing people and that was enough to find him guilty of murder. It didn't matter that his reasons for the murder were because he was mentally ill. On the other hand, there was a case where a guy was not guilty by reason of insanity for kidnapping his girlfriend. He literally had hallucinations she was a demon and trapped her inside a room in the house. He had no idea it was his girlfriend he was restraining.

This guy knew quite clearly that he would have to kill women in exchange for money, and that is what he did. He prepared, he stalked them, he came with equipment and he killed them. He knew the nature of the act (stabbing young women) and he knew the quality (that it was murder.) So he cannot benefit from the defence. He also tried to cover his tracks and sought treatment for his injuries afterwards - this again shows he realised that what he did was wrong. It's exceptionally rare that someone succeeds in this defence -I think it's just a handful of successes a year. They may not be focusing on his mental health as they have decided this defence is pointless to run (he is going for 'it wasn't me'.) His mental health issues will be relevant when it comes to mitigation in sentencing.

There is so much needed to make changes though.

Society as a whole says they care. That sex offences against women and girls are terrible. But the truth is it's words.

When push comes to shove it's so entrenched to focus on the victim.

Why was she there?
What was she wearing?
What was the time?
Why did she go that way?
Had she had a drink?
Did she know the attacker before?
Did she invite him back or go to his?
Why didn't she scream/ run away/ shout?
Etc etc etc

And of course.
Is she telling the truth?

To change that means somehow changing a load of really entrenched views in society and there's just no appetite for it. It's really hard to even get the spotlight on the assailant at all despite years of trying.

Then there's the justice system as a whole. Recent news only 1.5% of reported rapes see anyone charged. Not prosecuted or convicted. Charged. And most aren't reported to police. Needs total overhaul but again, there's no appetite.

I don't have all the answers obviously but one thing I have thought for years.

Is that they need to encourage women and girls to report everything in a sort of amnesty. Build a database. A lot of women and girls will have names locations descriptions etc. Put it all together. Women don't report for a load of good reasons. Let us feed the info. I would put money on a load of serial offenders popping out. And then, with multiple women involved, they might be more confident about going to court. And surely with multiple victim testimonies they'd be much more likely to convict.

That feels like an obvious thing to me. And you could capture it all on a sodding 90s Access database if you wanted to! My point is it wouldn't need loads of massive investment etc.

When I've mentioned this before I've been told it's not a good idea for various reasons.

DV as well.

Even men who attack other men at random.

I mean why not?

Another incentive even if they don't care much about these crimes is that men convicted of terrorism very often have a history of DV, VAWG. it would get some of them before it escalated as well.

It may well not have helped the sisters (although the police response is being investigated for other reasons). But it could well have stopped the everard attack, the man who is being released and also warboys and Reid way earlier than they were stopped.

You know, I had a patient who thought Jeremy Paxman was sending her secret messages on Newsnight. She didn’t think he was sending messages telling her to tidy her house up a bit, or stop smoking and take her meds, or anything else she didn’t want to hear. No, the only messages he sent her were ones that conveniently tied into her existing delusions about Prince Charles being a villain.

Im angry too. We are not safe walking home, we are not safe going to work, we are not safe walking a dog, we are not safe sitting in a park. Where are we safe? What are the likes of Priti Patel and the law makers in this country going to do about it? Attitudes need to change and much, MUCH harsher sentencing is needed. They are releasing Colin Pitchfork- why? Why has absolutely nothing changed since I was a young woman? Im late 50s and Im still apprehensive passing men/male groups on the street. These two beautiful young women should have had their whole future ahead of them. May they rest in peace.

I agree the 'joke' was in very bad taste. So if he had won the lottery, would that have made the murders ok?

I know this is veering off but the police are quite frankly hopeless and if they aren't interested then where does that leave us.

Agree the 'joke' from the lawyer was bizarre and tasteless.

They need to be prosecuted. On a different story yesterday. A police officer has been sacked for gross misconduct over behaviour towards a colleague. My read of what he did is that it's surely assault/ sexual assault. So why the hell wasn't he arrested? I mean they're the police fgs. A man who was sacked for sexual misconduct at my work it left me uneasy as what he did was a crime and there was no question of the police. In fact I think they advised him to leave immediately so he will get another job. And carry on.

This seems to be the same in schools universities etc.

But the police??!! This is from the bbc

'She said she had criticised him for his suggestion that a job vacancy should go to a woman based on their physical appearance.

This prompted Mr Hawxwell to hold scissors about two inches from her face while calling her sexually derogatory names, she added.

Officer A said this came a day after he put his arms around her throat, temporarily restricting her breathing, while asking if she liked being choked during sex.

Alice Sims, chair of the panel, told the hearing she accepted that Mr Hawxwell's conduct was "an extremely misplaced attempt at workplace banter".

"Nevertheless the panel found that his actions and words in this regard were a breach of the standard of authority, respect and courtesy," she said.'

Banter.

The POLICE.

I mean what chance do we have.

Apologies, my link seems to go to wrong report.

callmemaybee
Two officers have been charged

www.standard.co.uk › m...
Met Police officers apologise for pictures at Wembley double murder scene ...

@JesusInTheCabbageVan yes I thought that was a cheap joke when I read it too

I did find the flippant tone of the Barrister inappropriate though:

"As it turned out, the demon did not come good on the bargain since not only did the defendant not win the Lottery but the police identified all the evidence that links him to these two murders."

Nobody cares whether he won the lottery.

This is so horrific. 😢

What ever happened to the police officers that took selfies with their corpses?

I have thought about these two women every day since i first heard their names. The image of dancing with the lights, sisters being joyful in the midst of a pandemic.

I am thinking of their friends and family, i cant imagine the pain of it. Every thing that happened to these women that night and later makes me want to howl.

Such an awful, sad case. I can't imagine how devastated their family and friends feel. It's been really badly handled at every stage just adding to their pain. Whatever the outcome of the trial I doubt their loved ones will ever feel justice was done.

I absolutely hate the way we get to hear the man's reasoning for murder in reports of trials. I hate how terrorism is similarly reported too. It seems wrong that these men still have a voice, when they have silenced the voices of their victims. I don't fucking care mate. Whether God or the devil or your hurt feelings made you do it

This.

Misogyny rules.

This horrendous double murder has played on my mind so much. The horrific violence inflicted on joyful sisters celebrating a birthday is awful in itself. And the lack of public outrage, and limited reporting was really upsetting. But the actions of the police officers was grotesque and inhuman. Unforgivably degrading towards innocent women. Absolutely disgusting behaviour from anyone - but by police officers??

These beautiful women were destroyed physically and personally by the actions of men.

for their loved ones

He's not clearly mentally ill, he subscribes to a belief system that states you can manifest your thoughts. So does Donald Trump.

I too was surprised to read this was a stranger murder after the lack of fuss over their deaths.

The contrast between Nicole and Bibaa joyfully dancing and what happened to them afterwards is too much.

RIP Nicole and Bibaa. My heart goes out to their mum, and other family and friends, having this devastation and now having to go through the trial a year later.