Starmer and the Labour Party Really Cannot Read the Room

That's a really good point. Interesting to see how Labour deals with the fact that it has been laid out do clearly in court that Rosie Duffield (and the many like her) are legally protected in their views.

In light of the Maya case, one hopes Sir Kier will ensure Rosie isn't harassed anymore.

Mumsnet is left leaning. What about getting behind the Social Democratic Party? sdp.org.uk/

Reading a few things about zeitgeist and where we are currently at. The zeitgeist is that we are now at a practical phase era where we are reconstructing things and the mood is for 'doing things' and 'getting things done' and not talking about ideology and theory.

Labour fall off the cliff in this respect, and being out of government and physically unable to be 'doing things' also hurts them.

Ironically this also applies to things like the green movement and international diplomacy with the US back in the fold. The G7 conference has a mood about it when there will be more progress than usual for conferences of this type in getting agreements, in part because we have had a 'wasted year'.

The 'wasted year' mentality is the one to watch in politics. If Johnson can use it to gather momentum generally it will leave Labour standing in the dust.

(Also note areas in the UK where Labour has been seen to be 'doing things' and doing them well - Wales and Greater Manchester for example, the Labour vote has held up significantly better).

This neatly

Labour even told us to leave and called us transphobes when we just wanted to talk and open discussion.

This is the point that posters on here are forgetting. There are people within labour who have told us they don't welcome our views, activism or votes.

If not voting labour means more years of conservative government, the labour party are responsible, not the people told that they are not welcome.

I see KS has removed the splinters the size of dinosaur bones out of his arse.

I think his personality is really summed up by Shakespeare - lily livered and lacking in gall!

They will demand this as proof of his commitment to the cause. Every social media post they make is filled with comments from misogynists demanding her sacking.

Ereshkigalangcleg

"I think the pressure will be huge to sanction Rosie Duffield. I don't trust him not to."

He would have to be an absolute idiot to do so. Rosie actually increased her majority at the last election by 3%. Bearing in mind that she is the first ever Labour MP in Canterbury.
If as one poster suggested, KS is reading the room, then I would suggest it is a very small room and the lights are off.

Labour is apparently willingly giving the Tories this stick to beat them with. Why wouldn’t the Tories use it?

Quite.

Yet you think they are now the party to save us all?

Good grief no. It's precisely because the Tories are so awful we can't quite believe Labours contempt for women. The Tories are shit but you can't blame them the kamikaze politics which have alienated so many women from Labour. The bottom line is many of us are desperate for things to change but trying to change things from within hasn't worked so what else do we have left.

How's that 'no debate' slogan going Sir Kier? cause there are wimms out here who have other ideas

Yes I agree @BlackForestCake.

Why would they need to score points when Labour were/are doing amazing at scoring their own goals. I was shouting at the TV at one point when Lisa Nandy was spewing her anti woman hate. I was Labour born and bred but these people have destroyed the Labour Party and what it actually meant for a hell of a lot of people.

Labour even told us to leave and called us transphobes when we just wanted to talk and open discussion.

You can't try and insinuate the Tories started this war culture because its the actual Labour MPs fucking this all up. Just look at Dawn Butler They literally can't shut their mouth and do nothing.

The Tories didn't actually do anything for a long time they just stood still. Whilst this whole debacle was igniting they just did nothing which ironically made them a safer space. Then Lizz Truss stuck her neck out and said 'actually things are ok just as they are. Again - doing nothing. B

So they haven't actually done anything but must be laughing their tits off and some Labour MPs and now their Leader are still talking shite! You couldn't make it up.

And no I don't believe there was some secret tory target group with a conspiracy to create a 'culture war'. Thats just an excuse for a certain set of people unwilling to accept they have fucked up.

But the actual policies on this make it clear that labour would do much more than the Tories

Yes - but I find it difficult to trust the policies based on their performance in this issue. I don’t understand how it’s possible to have any policy that isn’t based in material analysis.

I'm really starting to think Labour have been taken over by some weird shape shifting, lizard people, body snatchers.

Because I can't fathom why they have wrecked themselves so much.

With Maya Forstaters ruling today and stonewalls embarrassment - they really did back the wrong horse. Idiots.

If I was the government and my opponents were spouting ludicrous nonsense about women having penises, I'd be shouting about it.

There’s only 180, 000 of them. What if 50, 000 of us joined? At least in the Conservative party MPs and members can speak freely

I can’t believe I am even saying this, I have never voted Tory in my life but the betrayal of women and children and the abandonment of common sense and reason by the parties of the left has brought me to this point

The Tories have been in power for the last 11 years, any decline in women and children's safe guarding/services (including trans issues) have happened under their watch.

This thread reminds me of Diane Abbott, when she was in the shadow cabinet, whatever criticism was thrown at the Tories, the response was "but what about Diane Abbott?"

Yet you think they are now the party to save us all?

As for tory party free speech? i would have a look at what happened to some 30 MPs in the last parliament.

@merrymouse

For me the question is 'which party do we trust more to make women's lives better?'

Whatever they say / do on gender v sex rights I DO NOT trust the Tories to deliver an overall improvement in the lives of women and girls.

What is frustrating is that the whole 'culture war' narrative paints labour as more interested in issues like trans rights & pulling down statues of slave owners than it is about lifting people out of poverty and delivering real improvements for the many many people struggling.

But the actual policies on this make it clear that labour would do much more than the Tories.

86% of the austerity cuts fell on women.

In total, the analysis estimates that the cuts will have cost women a total of £79bn since 2010, against £13bn for men.

That was in 2018 before many of the impacts of universal credit were felt.

The Tory response was a £30m women's grant. Of which £5m was to celebrate the centenary of suffrage. £30m against a £79 BILLION cut. It's disgusting.

This is what I'll judge the Tories on. Not their tub thumping about trans rights being pc gone mad (because that's what they are really bothered about, not women's rights...).

Allowing men to have officially recognised female id causes major safeguarding issues.

That's the point no one is willing to talk about, because there isn't a solution.

I'm willing to be seen to share the same views as 'the right wing' than people who don't want to talk about safeguarding.

However, I think that some Tory MPs are just genuinely supporting women.

Meanwhile Starmers’s stance is a mess. By supporting Self ID and pink news he has allied himself with the people who have targeted one of his female MPs for abuse. Meanwhile the concept of Self ID renders a GRC meaningless in practice.

If that is his stance on this issue, how can he be trusted on anything else, particularly as part of a wider coalition?

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a single issue, it's an entrenched belief that we owe them our allegiance and it goes back decades.

If the Tories have found a weak spot then Labour needs to be strong and rational to persuade us to support them, to show us that they have reasoned arguments for their position. They have no reasoned arguments because they follow dogma and recite mantras instead of debating the issues.

Labour is apparently willingly giving the Tories this stick to beat them with. Why wouldn’t the Tories use it?

I'm not saying the tories weaponising it should stop us talking about it at all. But I've always been uncomfortable about who I'm in agreement with on trans rights / women's rights ie the right wing small (& big )c conservatives.

I'm personally cautious about rejecting labour over this issue. I very much disagree with them on it but our party system means buying a 'basket of goods' not a single issue and overall Tory policies make life much harder for women where it matters most - the economy, welfare, health.

They must have been taking 4D Chess lessons from Trump.

I no longer think this is just about persuading Labour to change tack on self ID. I think it's far more deep rooted than that - it's their whole attitude to women. They may have stopped expecting us to brew their tea (have they?) but I think they still regard women as their supporting act, hence their bafflement and rage when any of us step uut of line.