Telegraph: Police forces threatened with legal action over links to Stonewall

Meanwhile, there's this whole Police and Stonewall thing, eh?

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@Tibtom i just looked SW's definitions up again (pasted below)... i dont see anything about lesbians being transphobic if they don't get with transwomen. can you link me?

there's valid gender critical points and then there's just plain myths and fantasies, i dont particularly want to get involved with the latter

Gay

Refers to a man who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards men. Also a generic term for lesbian and gay sexuality - some women define themselves as gay rather than lesbian. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Homosexual

This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

Homophobia

The fear or dislike of someone, based on prejudice or negative attitudes, beliefs or views about lesbian, gay or bi people. Homophobic bullying may be targeted at people who are, or who are perceived to be, lesbian, gay or bi.

Lesbian

Refers to a woman who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards women. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.[/quote]
Because they insist that transwomen are women, but they’re not. Transwomen are men.

Quite right eyeballs

Policing Insight has a piece on it but I don't know anyone with access to it. It would be interesting to read it, see how it is seen from their perspective!

@Theeyeballsinthesky sorry for derailing!!

who is bunbury?

Bunbury is finding this thread interesting

Anyway back on topic! The police’s total capture on this is eye opening

I agree @jellybeansforbreakfast, that argument has failed.

but we have much better ones that that lets be honest

well if i cant find it on the website then i dont think we can say SW is actively promoting that anyone who doesnt want to have sex with a transwoman is transphobic, tbh.

Really? Then there is no point in discussing it further, is there?

Because stonewall only ever use their website for promoting their point of view (which doesn't include promoting same sex attraction)

My Stonewall diversity training at work was done by Morgan Page, who is most famous for running Cotton Ceiling workshops to persuade lesbians to accept sex with penises.

Employing someone like that speaks volumes.

You seem not to be reading all that is posted for you!

CharlieParley gave you an example. There are others, but you won't find it on their website. There are quite a few threads here about it over the years - but I doubt anyone has collated them.

as i said it would be pretty silly for an organisation that caters for minority sexualities to tell people who they should have sex with. i still haven't seen anything to that effect (i've been on their website for a half hour now ) so it seems like a conspiracy more than anything. they use different terms that us but the whole 'you must have sex with these people or you're transphobic' is a strawman if ever i saw one.

So you now agree they don't support same sex attraction?

Yeah! You can't quote a post with a quote in it. Can be annoying but I suppose it saves very very long posts

I'm sorry but i still dont see it. even if it says gender instead of sex, And that's the sticking point. The reason that even when we use the same words we mean different things.

As has been posted Stonewall know the difference. They made their position very clear!

@jellybeansforbreakfast (sorry it wont let me quote)

I'm sorry but i still dont see it. even if it says gender instead of sex, how does that mean im transphobic if i dont want to get with a transwoman? i've never been told that or even had it hinted

there seems to be a few nutters on twitter (surprise surprise!) saying that but it seems to be a very extremist view and not something stonewall have said.

let me look more on SW's website though, who knows!!

Link to the Stonewall glossary: www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/glossary-terms

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@Tibtom don't be silly, that sounds like a far right talking point tbh. Obviously the largest lgbt organisation in the UK doesn't deny same sex attraction

We can criticise SW's involvement on trans issues but as many have said they have the longest track record of protecting lesbian and gay rights (although as a bi person they haven't been as great).

Repeating idiotic conspiracy theories doesn't strengthen our position, and makes us look like the loons they want us to be[/quote]
I beg to differ. The Stonewall glossary of terms shows clearly that Stonewall has a different idea about homosexuality than UK equality law (and most lesbians, gays and bisexuals):

Homosexual
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

The glossary also makes it clear that Stonewall differentiates between sex and gender, and that gender is socially constructed and refers to masculinity and femininity. By their own definition then, homosexuality is not same-sex but same-gender attraction, and a male transgender person who has not transitioned in any way is accepted as a lesbian. This has had a harmful effect on lesbians.

They have also refused any and all requests, however politely or despairingly made, to affirm that a female person who is strictly same-sex attracted to the exclusion of a male transgender person who identifies as a lesbian is not transphobic. This has had a harmful effect on lesbians.

Lesbian organisation Get the L out collected first person accounts of lesbians sharing what this means in practice.

Furthermore, in 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
wgscotland.org.uk/reports/

Stonewall's abandonment of same-sex attracted people is as much of an "idiotic conspiracy theory" as its campaign to abolish the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act (as claimed by Benjamin Cohen on the BBC this week). It's on their own website, in their own words.

I don't know about you, but when someone makes it so clear who they are (and who they are for), I believe them.

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@Tibtom i just looked SW's definitions up again (pasted below)... i dont see anything about lesbians being transphobic if they don't get with transwomen. can you link me?

there's valid gender critical points and then there's just plain myths and fantasies, i dont particularly want to get involved with the latter

Gay

Refers to a man who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards men. Also a generic term for lesbian and gay sexuality - some women define themselves as gay rather than lesbian. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Homosexual

This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

Homophobia

The fear or dislike of someone, based on prejudice or negative attitudes, beliefs or views about lesbian, gay or bi people. Homophobic bullying may be targeted at people who are, or who are perceived to be, lesbian, gay or bi.

Lesbian

Refers to a woman who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards women. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.[/quote]
Gay men attracted to men

Lesbians attracted to women

All seems fine until you look at it more closely. Doesn't same same sex attraction, and homosexual is same gender attraction.

Given that Stonewall also say TWAW and TMAM, acceptance without question, then you can see why many lesbians, and increasing numbers of gay men are getting annoyed!

Add to that the years of Twitter feed, press releases, lobbying etc, the stated aim of removal of single sex provision of absolutely anything - they can say sex then - and you should be able to see it.

Homosexual

This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

So not same sex attracted, as I said.

But they aren't trans things.. sorry the anti slipped in becasue I was also responding to a similar query on another platform. I'll say it again, properly:

Campaigns to prevent the loss of sex based rights aren't trans things

Campaigns against teaching multiple gender identities to the youngest of kids aren't trans things

Campaigns to increase the presence of LGB people are not trans things

They are all womens rights, gay, lesbian, bi rights, safeguarding children.

They only become trans things if you don't believe that women are adult human femals and never anything else; that the youngest of kids do not need safeguarding against the confusing multiplicity of genders and the refutation of science; that LGB can only exist if it is closely linked to T

Have you actually read their website?