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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am

856 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/06/2021 18:13

Wishing her the very best of luck. twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402310977115279362?s=20

I'll be absolutely gutted if the original decision isn't overturned, but at least her case has let a lot of sunlight in.

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SengaMac · 14/06/2021 10:46

It's stunning how so many supposedly intelligent people have turned out to be jobsworths who will follow anything that's put in front of them.

334bu · 13/06/2021 22:39

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/2021.06.13-063017/www.heraldscotland.com/news/19368938.iain-macwhirter-seems-women-allowed-vaginas/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.is/2021.06.13-063017/www.heraldscotland.com/news/19368938.iain-macwhirter-seems-women-allowed-vaginas/
Great article in Herald on Sunday taking about Maya amongst others.

Rhannion · 13/06/2021 22:26

It will as Scotland is part of the UK, whatever the SNP might like to think.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 13/06/2021 18:34

Separate thread about it here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4269764-Worthy-of-Respect-video-from-Sex-Matters

SengaMac · 13/06/2021 18:29

Respect

nauticant · 12/06/2021 12:28

I don't think anyone knows PearPickingPorky. Well, maybe his mum does.

PearPickingPorky · 12/06/2021 12:24

Who is Sam Dowler?

Brilliant response by Wossy.

Clymene · 12/06/2021 10:35

Unfortunately for Sam Dowler, there were screen shots. Silly Sam

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am
FannyCann · 12/06/2021 10:16

we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender.

I shall be interested to see how it is possible to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex -and gender roles - impact on women's lives without having a view on sex and gender.

highame · 12/06/2021 08:20

That's really interesting Embarassing will come back for a proper read

FindTheTruth · 12/06/2021 07:44

Yet TRAs seldom take them to task.

perhaps bullies are scared of bullies. or perhaps their values are aligned

ScreamingMeMe · 12/06/2021 07:39

@334bu

Why are all the most ardent male trans allies closet transphobes?
Always. Yet TRAs seldom take them to task. Funny that.
CardinalLolzy · 11/06/2021 21:25

Jesus.

334bu · 11/06/2021 19:13

Why are all the most ardent male trans allies closet transphobes?

nauticant · 11/06/2021 19:06

A minor celeb called Sam Dowler decides to go after Jonathan Ross for supporting Maya in order to get woke points:

twitter.com/search?q=(from%3Awossy)%20(to%3Asamdowler)&src=typed_query

You can't see Sam Dowler's tweets because he deleted them.

And then, to absolutely no one's surprise guess what:

twitter.com/CultSwat/status/1403388149397692423

shenanigans5 · 11/06/2021 13:47

TheWayOfTheWorld it’s more that it’s a public forum where my family and children live and I guess there’s a potential for them to be excluded because of something I said on the internet. I don’t know.

There was of course a fair few people in disagreement as well as those supportive of the GC stance.

Sorry to derail. I’m reading along the thread and learning all the time which is great.

TheWayOfTheWorld · 11/06/2021 13:22

@shenanigans5

I hadn’t realised Maya lives just down the road from me. I commented on a local mums Facebook page for the first time disagreeing with someone who said chromosomes are ‘all mixed up and not about xx or xy’.

I disagreed in the standard fashion- it’s xx or xy unless born intersex, which is rare and explained I have a science based degree and masters. Maya liked my comments and commented herself on the thread.

I know it’s pathetic to worry but I’ve never waded into the debate before- which I realise is a bit weak.

Has anyone felt negative effects of expressing views publicly? Any advice at all?

I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised by the ratio of likes to dislikes 👀
lanadelgrey · 11/06/2021 13:11

I see it as stopping that ‘bring your whole self to work’ stuff. Nothing to hide but no jumping on desks and shouting out other points of view or hanging out too much bunting

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 12:43

They proposed a sex gender topic within feminism.

Which is IMO pointless.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/06/2021 12:33

I hope this isnt going to be a "Gender criticism" topic as there's no feminist who isn't critical of gender stereotypes and gender roles, and experiences difficulties in life as a direct result of her sex.

Interesting - it's probably worth seeing what MNHQ propose.

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?msgid=108110967

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 12:31

@SunnyintheSun

Just when you think things are going well…. At the risk of a random post, MNHQ have just posted on Site Stuff to say Sex/Gender threads are going to be hived off from the rest of FWR. Anyone else smelling a rat?
Um what now?

I hope this isnt going to be a "Gender criticism" topic as there's no feminist who isn't critical of gender stereotypes and gender roles, and experiences difficulties in life as a direct result of her sex.

I've said a few times I don't subscribe to gender critical feminism as a new breed of feminism, as feminism is critical of gender and the impact of the male sex on the female sex in society by default.

MellieBellie · 11/06/2021 12:15

I agree - many woman have no idea what they're really supporting. I was in that position last year when I read JKR's essay. I wasn't sure what to think, so I did a bit of research and I was horrified. Despite that, I kept reading about gender ideology and watching videos because I thought I'd missed something important that would make it logical. I didn't even mention it to my partner for months because I was so unsure. I couldn't believe that prominent people who I admired and largely agreed with would unquestionably accept such an incoherent ideology.

Now, I feel comfortable that I understand gender ideology and that I am right to be concerned. I've speaking to family and friends, but I've learned that I need to do it in stages because it's too much for them to believe if they hear it all at once. I had to send articles and reports to my step-mum last week because she seriously thought I'd veered into tinfoil hat territory. She was shocked when she saw that every example I'd given her was true. I'm hoping she'll now pass the info on to her friends.

I've also noticed a difference when I'm talking to men. I bring it up and they immediately say something dismissive about the TRA movement. They appear to be completely unconflicted about their views, and they have absolutely no fear of saying what they think. It's quite frustrating when I think of the fear that many women feel when talking about these matters.

SunnyintheSun · 11/06/2021 12:11

Just when you think things are going well…. At the risk of a random post, MNHQ have just posted on Site Stuff to say Sex/Gender threads are going to be hived off from the rest of FWR. Anyone else smelling a rat?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/06/2021 12:09

And presumably that is now a thing of the past.

T&Cs of private spaces and the right to refuse access - I should think it will carry on.

And people will carry on wondering why women didn't speak up about these issues. And preference falsification will continue to be a meaningful phenomenon. (Quoting the book summary below.)

www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies, Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.

shenanigans5 · 11/06/2021 11:54

I hadn’t realised Maya lives just down the road from me. I commented on a local mums Facebook page for the first time disagreeing with someone who said chromosomes are ‘all mixed up and not about xx or xy’.

I disagreed in the standard fashion- it’s xx or xy unless born intersex, which is rare and explained I have a science based degree and masters. Maya liked my comments and commented herself on the thread.

I know it’s pathetic to worry but I’ve never waded into the debate before- which I realise is a bit weak.

Has anyone felt negative effects of expressing views publicly? Any advice at all?