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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am

856 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/06/2021 18:13

Wishing her the very best of luck. twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402310977115279362?s=20

I'll be absolutely gutted if the original decision isn't overturned, but at least her case has let a lot of sunlight in.

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AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying · 10/06/2021 12:19

Love that Twitter comment! @Paralithic 🤣

Toomie · 10/06/2021 12:18

Thanks again NecessaryScene. A really clear explanation.

WarriorN*
Me too! I expect there's loads of us with that same experience. I don't know if I would have been aware of any of this if it weren't for the need to find something to keep me awake during the sleepless newborn cluster feeding stage.
That was three years ago. I thought I may as well click on a trans thread and find out what all the feminists are on about. Have been in awe and humbled and learning ever since.

AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying · 10/06/2021 12:17

🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌

butwhatcanwedo · 10/06/2021 12:15

Thank you Maya, this is amazing. In tears!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 10/06/2021 12:15

If gender dysphoria is a disability, then I using the transperson's preferred pronouns might be form a reasonable adjustment.

This does not, of course, resolve the matter of trauma-informed care when somebody has specified that the HCP should be of a particular sex.

McDuffy · 10/06/2021 12:13

Found this a good read by one of her legal team
www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly

AfternoonToffee · 10/06/2021 12:13

My ability to hang out on MN is due to no more than sheer laziness and lack of motivation on my part.

SlipperyDippery · 10/06/2021 12:12

@CrumpetShaw

Would not using preferred pronouns constitute "harassment" in a workplace I wonder.
Almost certainly, yes
Paralithic · 10/06/2021 12:12

I enjoyed this Twitter response to someone asking about the implications for trans people in the workplace:

The implications are for women's free speech and sex based rights in the work place. This might come as a surprise but not everything is about you.

alexk3 · 10/06/2021 12:11

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PastMyBestBeforeDate · 10/06/2021 12:10

Just managed to catch up with the verdict. Well done Maya!

CrumpetShaw · 10/06/2021 12:10

Would not using preferred pronouns constitute "harassment" in a workplace I wonder.

yourhairiswinterfire · 10/06/2021 12:09

@nauticant

There are two Maya threads in the TRENDING NOW box.
Three now :)
WarriorN · 10/06/2021 12:07

My ability to hang out on mumsnet was entirely facilitated by breastfeeding.

Oblomov21 · 10/06/2021 12:07

What happens now?
Do we have to wait to hear what her decision is, next step is, re the case with her previous employers?

JediGnot · 10/06/2021 12:04

@IShouldBeSoLurky

Just saw someone on Twitter refer to MN as “Prosecco Stormfront” which to be fair is pretty funny.
Is there not a risk that such a description helps build the picture that GC beliefs are only held by privileged middle class women who have nothing to do but hang out on mumsnet, drink prosecco and abuse trans women?
SheldontheWonderSchlong · 10/06/2021 12:04

Brilliant news! Thank you Maya on behalf of me and my daughter Thanks

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 12:01

This is a good thing right? It means that the two sides have their cases heard in court again. However this time the arguments will receive much greater scrutiny and coverage in the media.

Well, as the judge somewhat grumpily says at the end of this judgment - we shouldn't have been spending so long on the particulars of her case, or the details of her belief at this stage. The beliefs clearly pass the "Grainger" tests, and they shouldn't have been looking at her behaviour yet.

For GC people, it's this part of the judgment that's most important - the legal precedent. GC people are protected from discrimination for not believing TWAW, and that TWAM, and acting upon that. (As long as it doesn't stray into harrassment etc).

Whether Maya wins her individual discrimination case is less important generally, although obviously it's important to her and everyone here thinks she deserves it. That case will likely clarify some legal points about what does and doesn't "stray into harrassment". Where is the line, and did she cross it?

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 10/06/2021 12:01

*load of tosh

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 10/06/2021 12:00

So gender dysphoria may be a disability? And TWAW is a philisophical belief?

Yes. If gender dysphoria is a disability, then I using the transperson's preferred pronouns might be form a reasonable adjustment. With a philosophical belief, it's more complex as it would be wrong to force others to manifest that belief, but using gender neutral pronouns ought to suffice because then you are not constantly reminding your colleague that you think their belief is a liar of tosh, but you should not be forced to refer to your male colleague as "her" on the basis of their belief. That's my quick take anyway.

JustSpeculation · 10/06/2021 11:59

The judgement says that you can not use your sincerely held beliefs to harass other people. I have no problem with that, and I don't think anyone else who thought about it would either.

Tibtom · 10/06/2021 11:58

@Toomie

Aargh. I'm at work and can't keep up with this thread or any other Maya news today.

Can someone clarify for me?
As I understand it, today's ruling isn't a simple overturn of the original judgement. More that it gives Maya permission to have the tribunal heard again?

This is a good thing right? It means that the two sides have their cases heard in court again. However this time the arguments will receive much greater scrutiny and coverage in the media.

I don't think she has had her main employment tribunal yet. It relied on her protected beliefs and that has only now been recognised in law.
Toomie · 10/06/2021 11:58

I see, thanks NecessaryScene

JustSpeculation · 10/06/2021 11:57

@MondayYogurt

I probably won't get an answer here but if a trans person alleges harassment via pronouns and is found in favour, then detransitions to natal gender, what happens to the ruling?
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that if such a case of pronouns was found to constitute harassment, then the judgement stands, because, well, harassment. If it doesn't then the issue doesn't arise.
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