R4 now Tuesday 7.51 am

Oooh! Will they be calling Simon a 'dog whistler?

Poor Simon's been called a lot worse than that.

Omg, I've just listened to the catch up. How utterly fabulous.

Well done Justin and Simon. So much sunlight.

Benjamin Cohen on the other hand clearly hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. Either he simply doesn't understand, or he's a very (poor) liar.

'I'm not prepared to debate my existence' is a lazy excuse to avoid having to admit that there is a clash between women’s rights and trans rights.

It is. And it doesn't cut it any more, TRAs. The time of #nodebate is long over. Get Over It.

Just listened. That was bloody glorious! Not for Ben obviously , whataboutism, hole digging, lying, hostility, leaning towards GC views with antisemitism (not outright but by refusing to acknowledge NK did so by the by), calling GC people outright transphobes, polished off with incoherent ranting at the presenter at the end, who gave us a nice reminder that Stonewall refused to take part - after the NK interview though I'm not surprised.

He went straight on the attack and Justin Webb wasn't having it. Lovely.

I'm glad the BBC have finally given some airtime to this issue, after BBC online news article after news article of trans stories and not one peep about Marion Millar, which the papers have been covering.

This is superb stuff

doubly so as we all knew it would happen

that when the nodebaters came out and debated they would get trounced

Stonewall is like an aging boxing champion who has been avoiding the young challenger for years and who have received a good pasting after they finally come out to fight

'I'm not prepared to debate my existence' is a lazy excuse to avoid having to admit that there is a clash between women’s rights and trans rights.

That was fabulous.
It felt like the last few years distilled into 10 minutes.
On the one hand, calm, reason, facts, clear exposition of the issues, truth, willingness to debate.
On the other hand, ranting, misrepresentation, hypocrisy, refusal to engage, oppression Olympics.
Thank you, Justin.

I’m glad James Kirkup has provided the evidence.
We all know Ben was lying when he said Stonewall were not trying to remove the Single sex exceptions from the Equality act.

The thing is, prominent trans people like. Paris Lees are always talking about how they turn down interviews because 'I'm not prepared to debate my existence', but then everyone moans that there are no trans people in these sorts of interviews.

I suppose they could have invited a female TRA ally, but I don't think that would have made them look very good.

Oh dear. I wonder if BC regards 'hostile' as not letting him (or whatever preferred pronoun) misrepresent the truth, cast aspersions on people, and just rant away instead of engaging in the discussion.

I'd also like them to be confronted with a woman who says I do not give my consent for male individuals to be in my space. What do you say to that?

I guess this is why they didn't invite a woman on with Cohen there.

Well that was a car crash for Ben Cohen. He came across very badly.

Did anyone notice Justin mentioned Transsexual though? Probably a slip, but that's exactly what the vast public think Trans is. Great listening though, I really enjoyed it!

A response to Jeffrey Ingold, Stonewall head of media, now on "sabbatical" while apparently toting for other work, being called out on trying to claim that excluding MTF trans people from women's spaces was illegal and that single sex exceptions didn't apply to them, while simultaneously campaigning to remove the exceptions in the case of trans people.

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1178360950036062210?s=20

Oh dear Ben isn't getting the adulation I think he expected on Twitter. He's been corrected several times on his misrepresentation of Stonewalls position on single sex spaces.

Good point

" Paralithic Tue 08-Jun-21 10:03:37

Yes, “hostility” now means “being asked to explain something through the medium of facts not woo woo and lies”. "

I think people in general are heartily sick of this "how very dare you" minefield and have lost patience with university graduates who claim victimhood, while denouncing others from their high profile media platform in their white, educated, middle class voices. It's the phenomenon identified by Lucy Mcdonagh of the Deptford Project way back in 2015 - That’s what ‘self-identify’ means: anyone can say they are anyone… So, rich, privileged people can claim to be marginalized.

It seemed to me that BC absolutely encapsulated the 'you can't say that' culture - or you have to prove your credentials before you're allowed to voice an opinion. People are losing patience with that. More and more people want, and are willing, to discuss the Emperor's sartorial choices and the derailing and merailing just doesn't work anymore.

Absolutely this. I've bolded Lucy's statement as it's so important.

That was a joyous listen, demonstrated everything perfectly. If BC hadn’t have been so incensed that the issue was even being discussed he might have got some clear counter arguments across just like SF did clearly and concisely. He was just so angry he forgot the interview was about Stonewall and not just about him and how he is oppressed.

I would just love the questions to be answered. Define a woman. Define lesbian. Can two male individuals be lesbians. Or a male and a female, and if so, how are they subjected to homophobia?

The Staniland question.

The sports issue.

I'd also like them to be confronted with a woman who says I do not give my consent for male individuals to be in my space. What do you say to that?

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wrjn

Apologies but I can't find it from the link posted earlier? Could anyone post it again? Thanks

'And Justin picked him straight up on that! 'Hang on no it isn't'. Hurrah!'

Loved that bit! These people are rarely challenged on anything that they say. 'Transphobia' is a serious accusation that they are allowed to throw around and they are never asked to back it up

It looks as though BC would like to force JW to declare a gender identity to make a point.

I'm sure that probably contravenes the Yogyakarta Principles?

Yes, “hostility” now means “being asked to explain something through the medium of facts not woo woo and lies”.