LOJ - things not going as planned

'Most people aren't deeply embedded in these arguments, what they see around them in terms of the women's movement is how they interpret it. I can see how people might feel like women are arguing for the legitimacy of women only spaces having completely delegitimised male only spaces, and so their sense of something unfair happening to women isn't being alerted.'

I touched on this earlier.

Women wanted access to men's 'sphere' - education, employment, decision making.. the public sphere (as per Victorian ideas).

In return men want access to women's sphere- the 'private' sphere. But not the shit bits. The bits they have always been suspicious of or fascinated by.

So women wanted equality in decision making, education, employment and opportunity.

In return men want to be in places where women are getting undressed.

Is what it boils down to.

Which valuable male only spaces have feminists removed or tried to remove?

Can you give some examples?

Round here there are (or were before covid)

Groups for older men living alone
Dad's and babies groups (yes ok the bacon sandwiches thing is annoying but I doubt anyone actually complained!)

In town there are gay gyms.

That's all I know of just from general life. It's not a thing I have looked into.

Oh and the men's pond at Hampstead that women had no interest in disrupting until they were told that the women's pond was self id. And I suspect that was a one off- I suspect and hope the men who use it are still in a male only environment. And as a space where gay men could be relaxed (as the women's pond used to be for lesbians) I hope that the men still have that.

What things are you thinking of?

Most people aren't deeply embedded in these arguments, what they see around them in terms of the women's movement is how they interpret it. I can see how people might feel like women are arguing for the legitimacy of women only spaces having completely delegitimised male only spaces, and so their sense of something unfair happening to women isn't being alerted.

Also isn't it AMAZING that SF invented the idea of men wearing makeup in 2014!

Thanks, hadn't noticed the original photo was gone! I think it's really important that that photo of Shon Faye is spread far and wide because it really shows you who and what Shon Faye is.

Here it is again. Much better.

And yes, totally agree with the sentiments about LOJ and pals not being interested in listening to actual women.

It’s a bit like a bunch of expats opining at length about the country where they reside but having no interest in or time for the locals whatsoever - and yet still convinced that they alone are the experts.

It's the old. Women wanted equality. Ha! We can punch you in the face now.

Just so. Every bit of progress made by women is to some extent turned against us. Patriarchy innit.

Yes exactly.

Women wanted into the public sphere that was men's. Government, good jobs, decision making, pubs even.

In return men want access to women's sphere- the private. Not the boring home stuff. But the stuff they have always wondered about, been suspicious of, fantasised about. Men have been obsessed with what goes on in women's loos for years. And of course anywhere we're getting undressed, having time with other women and no men there, that stuff.

That's equality, see.

Why is it framed as some sort of justice for adult males to gain access to female spaces and sports?

I've asked this myself but a comment on another site made me think.

A woman had posted something relatively gender critical and finalized it with a sentence about protecting women's spaces.

One of the replies was a man saying, "You're taking men's spaces. This is what you get"

I don't have an account on the site, so I could not reply but my thought was "What all man's spaces have we breached? The government? Management? The public sphere? Men still have private clubs and societies that we cannot enter like the Masons and Bohemian Grove. Men effectively still have a monopoly upper management and government? And women have certainly never lobbied to use men's bathrooms, changing rooms or other protected set asides.

Somehow treating women as legal humans is a huge problem for some men as they see it as an attack on them.

easy radicalisation of the nation's gestational womb baby growing launderbots

😂 I want a t-shirt with that on!

Because to them, feminism isn't actually about what women want, it's about what women are allowed to have.

I did see a male who identified as a woman the other day describe feminism as working towards women getting better treatment from men. The person really had no idea.

James O'brien is another example of this. A self declared 'feminist' but couldn't understand women wanting female only spaces? Because to them, feminism isn't actually about what women want, it's about what women are allowed to have.

DEEPTHRT

Next talking point for the new news thing.

Should women be allowed to use the internet?

The internet was built by men for men and is a male space. The type of vigorous debate and close to the bone banter so natural to male comrades often upsets females of a nervous disposition.

There is also the problem that they are very easily led, with little rational ability. This leads to easy radicalisation of the nation's gestational womb baby growing launderbots.

As a SOCIALIST I have long been concerned about helping those in society who have natural disadvantages or are less able.

I propose that the computer industry globally produce products in two variants. Pink and blue.

Vagina cervix people who are cis will only be allowed to purchase pink ones.

These will have limited internet accessibility with only access to hand picked websites allowed. A new govt department will be created to curate these sites and decide who is cis. The Dept for the Education and Enlightenment of those Persons who are Threatened Heavily by Rationalism and Truth. DEEPTHRT.

there is no need to act around cervix uterisers accessing eg VPN, tor, or building their own devices from scratch as they do not have the ability to do this.

Any man or boy found to have allowed a vaginal penetrateee to use a male device will be told off. Any ovulator procreator type mammal of human species found to have used the device of a man or boy will be imprisoned for life.

This is imperative to be acted on immediately to help. It's the kind thing to do.

Send money to [email protected]

Women..? 😲

Organising..? 😲😲

On the Internet? 😵😵😵

Agree that women don't feature in OJ's world view. I've found this with other left-wing men - if you express a feminist viewpoint, like worrying about grooming gangs, or being opposed to self-ID, or wanting to end the exploitation of prostituted women, they accuse you of being right-wing. As far as they're concerned, there's just left (good) and right (bad) and the idea of a unique feminist viewpoint that centres women is completely alien to them. They have no idea about feminist writers, or feminist theory, or any of the feminist debates over the last 50 years. Women just don't compute.

Worse even. He doesn't care about women enough to hate them. They're just not in his world view at all.

This is totally the impression I get when I read what he says. I don't think he actively hates women, I just don't think he really even considers them. The idea that women are humans who might have needs or desires of their own, that they might want to organise in order to advocate for themselves, is just alien to him. He literally never listens to what women have to say on this issue, the idea that they might not want to just move over and make way for males leaves him scratching his head.

OJ trends every week on twitter. You'd think he would understand the concept of various people chatting about a post and then other people reading the chat and wandering over to have a look...

Golly I'm part of an organised campaign!!!!

Who knew!

That's really exciting ....

Talcum really needs to dust himself off.

He's just a bogstandard misogynist.

Worse even. He doesn't care about women enough to hate them. They're just not in his world view at all.

All he sees is men who he sees as part of his 'group' not getting what they want and that's infuriating. Mummy says no. Who the fuck does she think she is?!

He's only 36 though. Born 84.

So 14 in what. 98.

I'm older than him by some margin and ok from London and also ok not gay but we had out kids at school, there were loads of gay clubs, it was you know. I mean the heavy lifting had been done in the 80s really and esp around hiv and aids bringing the topic to the fore. That was when the fighting happened I think mainly?

I can't see the thread anymore, I recommended people buy Kathleen Stocks book in his replies, I think he's blocked me on Facebook now. I've got the double.

It's not so much an organised campaign as a bout of rubbernecking from these quarters I think, given the backlash was already under way by the time it was mentioned here.