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Original poster

Libby Purves in the Times today

37 replies

ErrolTheDragon · 07/06/2021 08:21

Unsurprisingly, as someone who has written books on being a mother, she has some pertinent words to add to the current debate.

I'm not sure if it was this column or something else DH has read in the papers which made his first words to me this morning about 'physical gestators'. He's always, as a rational bloke, been aligned with GC views, but this phrase - which as he says, sounds like something in a biochemical plant - has truly appalled him

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stonewalls-word-policing-only-breeds-more-hate-fxg6hmnfs?shareToken=8d6db39b9fd0e13e24458aab431b34c6

OP posts:
Datun · 07/06/2021 08:58

As far as I'm aware, from this discussion before and from what R0wantrees said, the word mother has legal implications. Which is why when a surrogate gives birth, the child has to subsequently go through a legal adoption. The mother, i.e. the person giving birth, has instant and immediate legal responsibility for that child, until established otherwise.

Apparently the word and concept of mother is written into legislation, in the children's act, etc, and legally interwoven all over the place.

It's not just a word.

borntobequiet · 07/06/2021 08:56

Good to hear another voice on this, and an articulate and no-nonsense one at that. She’s an excellent writer.

LizzieSiddal · 07/06/2021 08:53

This is interesting on the word Mother

From @AdoptionUK

@stonewalluk your laudable drive for workplace equality has a major downside for thousands of women who didn't give birth but are mothers by adoption, many of whom are LGBTQ+. Let’s get your Workplace Equality Index right for everyone.

CardinalLolzy · 07/06/2021 08:52

@AgnesNaismith

Erm. No it isn’t.
You can't use the word you're defining in the definition of that word. It's the same as "a woman is anyone who feels like a woman". Replace the word mother with xyz. Xyz: (2) the female person who xyzs the child.

You're no closer to understanding what xyz actually means there.

Perhaps the word within the definition should be "parent" and the pp got it wrong.

AgnesNaismith · 07/06/2021 08:51

How about just ‘parent’?

CardinalLolzy · 07/06/2021 08:48

@AgnesNaismith

But can’t the word ‘mother’ cover both of those aspects *@CardinalLolzy*. As it always has done.

I don’t think mother must equal femininity but it does mean the female guardian/carer of a child. Another thought, is this change in language also to desensitise us from the horrors of using surrogates?

Yes, that's what i said. If it has an additional meaning then I can see why people who only want to be described as the birthing person but not the female guardian want to have a different word. I don't agree that this is the way to do it at all though but there is a logic there.
DaisiesandButtercups · 07/06/2021 08:45

Excellent article, thank you for sharing it here ErrolTheDragon

AgnesNaismith · 07/06/2021 08:45

Erm. No it isn’t.

CardinalLolzy · 07/06/2021 08:43

@334bu

Mother has two meanings1 the person who gives birth2 the female person who mothers the child . So adoptive parents are mothers and fathers.
But what's the definition of "mother" used in (2)? It's circular!
AgnesNaismith · 07/06/2021 08:42

But can’t the word ‘mother’ cover both of those aspects @CardinalLolzy. As it always has done.

I don’t think mother must equal femininity but it does mean the female guardian/carer of a child. Another thought, is this change in language also to desensitise us from the horrors of using surrogates?

334bu · 07/06/2021 08:41

Mother has two meanings1 the person who gives birth2 the female person who mothers the child . So adoptive parents are mothers and fathers.

CardinalLolzy · 07/06/2021 08:35

On one hand, linguistically, either the word mother purely means "person who has given birth", or it also has additional connotations (being maternal, feminine or something, I don't really know). I can see why people who don't want those connotations want to remove it, and equally I assume that's why people who do want those connotations are objecting to the removal of the word, so they're kind of in agreement in one respect?

On the other hand, it's denying adoptive parents the experience of being a "mother", so really, fuck that. It's exclusionary and insulting. Adoptive mothers are mothers!