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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article

733 replies

RedthroatedCaracara · 06/06/2021 11:20

because all females need to be aware of this

And there's no need to have an attack of the vapours because it's a Daily Mail link. For all their multitude of shortcomings, the Mail at least have the guts to publish articles that stand up for women and girls.

OP posts:
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TofuDelights · 07/06/2021 21:44

ANewCreation, absolutely brava!! What an absolutely awesome post! Sorry, don't know how to quote but that should be pinned at the top of FWR.

I know it won't be but it bloody well deserves to be!!

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2021 21:42

Long post, not sorry.

Over the past few months, loads of women have been working incredibly hard making FOI requests to public sector organisations that are Stonewall Diversity Champions.

A few times in the responses I have seen the suggestion, either by Stonewall or by the participating org, that more effort should be made to introduce gender neutral language to policies, documents and communications, including removing terms such as 'woman' and 'mother'.

No, I didn't save links to these particular responses, there's just so much data it's overwhelming and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. I believe Sex Matters are planning a database or something to crunch it all into something meaningful. When this additional hard work has been done, by more women, it may be possible to give a straightforward answer to 'how widespread is this?', whether we're talking about erasure of female terminology or any other aspect of what stonewall has done.

This will take a while. It's a lot of work, women are fitting it in around already busy lives and none of them are being paid. I believe Sex Matters are looking for volunteers to help with this if you're interested.

In the meantime, here's what I've done for you, Pumper, to help you get started on your own research:

--------
Here's Stonewall's top 100 in their Workplace Equality Index:

www.stonewall.org.uk/full-list-top-100-employers-2020

We can safely assume that all these organisations are also signed up members of the Diversity Champions racket. If you doubt this you are free to cross-check them all, I'm not doing that work for you. The full list is here:

sex-matters.org/stonewall-champions-list/

We can also safely assume that the higher up an organisation comes in this list, the more they have done to meet stonewall's requirements. That's just common sense, isn't it? If you doubt this, you will have a wonderful opportunity to gather evidence against this assumption in the course of your research.

So if we just look at the organisation at #100 and see what they're doing, we can assume that #'s 1-99 are doing even more, yes? See above for what to do if you have doubts about this.

The organisation at #100 is Public Health Wales, who unfortunately are playing silly fuckers with their FOI request:

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/information_about_your_dealings_330#incoming-1771014

So I've been on their website and spent rather a lot of time trawling around, seeing what they're up to. This is what their public page on cervical screening says:

Who should have cervical screening?

If you are aged 25 to 64 and you have a cervix, you can have cervical screening. We will invite you for cervical screening if you are aged 25-64 and you are registered as female or unspecified with a GP surgery.

If you have a cervix but are registered as male, we will not be able to invite you for screening due to the current limitations of our database. You will need to arrange to have cervical screening with your GP or clinic

If we are told that you should not have screening, because you do not have a cervix, we will not invite you. This might be because you have had a hysterectomy, or because you are transgender.

phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/cervical-screening-wales/what-is-cervical-screening/

I refer you to the numerous posters upthread who have pointed out the issues this kind of obfuscatory language raises for people with learning disabilities, people who are not fluent in English and people with low levels of literacy.

This is a work in progress. We know this because Public Health Wales's Annual Equality Report for 2019-20 says:

6.5.2 Transgender Public Information Review

The Screening Engagement Team is leading a review of the screening based transgender information resources. An engagement review is being undertaken with people from the transgender community. The new resource development will be available in late 2020.

6.5.3 Cervical Screening Wales information review

Cervical Screening Wales has undertaken a review of its invitation information to ensure it’s inclusive of people who identify as non-binary and of people who have undergone gender reassignment. We are working towards removing gender specific references, replacing with gender neutral terminology by defining eligibility criteria as anyone with a cervix.

phw.nhs.wales/news/annual-equality-report-2019-20/

The info leaflets on this page still refer to women and girls:

phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/cervical-screening-wales/information-resources/information-leaflets-posters-downloads-and-accessible-information/

And of course you'll still be able to find references to women, girls and mothers in other places on the website. As if that's the fucking point. To their credit, Public Health Wales do appear to put a lot of effort into accessibility. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the meetings where they discuss how to make their easy-read smear test leaflet stonewall compliant.

Their transitioning at work guidance is something else. It says:

3.1.4 Non-Binary people in law

Currently, neither the Equality Act nor the Gender Recognition Act cover non-binary people and those who do not identify with the gender binary of male and female. This policy and other related Public Health Wales policies are designed to go beyond the legal requirements and to be inclusive of non-binary people. (my bold)

and -

3.6.5 Use of facilities

Non-binary employees or those transitioning at work are entitled to use the facilities that align with their gender identity from the first day that they present in that gender. Employees cannot be asked to use alternative facilities, such as the disabled toilet, but they may decide themselves that they wish to do so. (my bolds)

phw.nhs.wales/about-us/policies-and-procedures/policies-and-procedures-documents/human-resources-policies/

Note the lack of an equality impact assessment, when they seem reasonably good at providing this for other policies.

And for the avoidance of doubt, Public Health Wales are really proud of their involvement with Stonewall. Here's what they said in their 2019-20 Quality Statement:

Stonewall Index

We took part in the Stonewall Workplace Equality Index (WEI) benchmarking exercise again this year. The WEI is the standard employers use to measure their progress on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender inclusion in the workplace.

We were delighted to learn that we were placed 100th out of 502 organisations that took part. Since we started to take part in the Stonewall WEI we have made great improvements every year. In 2017 we were placed 338th, then in 2018 we jumped to 173. Our latest result means we are entering the Stonewall Top 100 Employers list for the first time.

This a clear indication of how we are becoming a more inclusive organisation and making big improvements every year. Although the WEI looks at how inclusive we are for LGBT+ staff, making further improvements means we can improve equality and inclusion across the business so we can continue to be more inclusive.

My bolds.

phw.nhs.wales/about-us/annual-report/

They claim that Stonewall's WEI is 'the standard' that employers use to measure LGBT workplace inclusion.

They claim that 'making further improvements' to meet Stonewall's demands means that they are improving equality and inclusion generally. If you want to demand evidence of every single claim Pumper, then demand evidence from Public Health Wales, because they don't seem to have done an equality impact assessment to back up this assertion.

---------

That's enough unpaid work from me.

If you doubt this is widespread then you can do your own similar research on the other 99 organisations that score even higher on the stonewall index than PHW. It's great you're interested in gathering evidence and please do come back and share your findings. We need all hands on deck.

At a quick glance around half the organisations on the list are public bodies. There are around 200 more public bodies who have paid to be part of Stonewall Diversity Champions but who have not made the list.

FOIs have been submitted to the vast majority of these. If you want to find out more then go to www.whatdotheyknow.com and search for:

'Information about your dealings with Stonewall [Extraneous material removed]'

There's a lot of data there to keep you busy but not all organisations have provided a sensible response so it's sometimes necessary to trawl deep into policy documents to get an idea of what an organisation has done and what they have planned. Even then, there will be a lot of material that is not publicly available.

Screenshotting random pages that still use words like 'woman' and 'mother' is not research. It looks lazy and facetious and the aim appears to be to tie women up in busy-work, running all over the internet to provide evidence in response to your demands.

Nobody's buying it. Help or get out of the way.

snekkes · 07/06/2021 21:40

@Pumperthepumper, I believe the local custom is to offer Flowers and possibly Gin for such excellence.

(Not sarcasm!)

Datun · 07/06/2021 21:37

Just in case, and in the unlikely event, the people are still unaware that this is an attack on women, not men, I have copied a post from another current thread.

You don't have to read the links particularly far, just the first sentence in each will suffice.

Horizons83

And to all those who think this attack on language is nothing against women, and it goes both ways...

Medical definition of male:
www.medicinenet.com/male/definition.htm

Medical definition of female:
www.medicinenet.com/female/definition.htm

Warmduscher · 07/06/2021 21:26

I don’t understand what you mean.

Are you saying women should compromise by allowing men to say they are breast feeding when they are holding a baby and feeding it from a bottle?

Dione2594 · 07/06/2021 21:16

I mean I agree that erasing sex-relating things are not good

Dione2594 · 07/06/2021 21:16

@Warmduscher

No. I dont agree with the majority of the article, but I theorized a middleground.

Datun · 07/06/2021 21:00

ANewCreation

Bravo!!!

Warmduscher · 07/06/2021 20:53

@Dione2594

I think we're replacing words when we should be reappropriating them instead. Eg, some non-heterosexual couples try to raise their children with one of them being a 'father-figure' in this sense they are still a woman, identify as a woman but also as a father. Breastmilk is applicable to all in the sense that men, women and human beings in general, have breasts, they can have breast cancer so they have breast tissue albeit less protruding. So the term breast feeding can be appropriated as a way the baby is held close to the heart even when being fed with a bottle that is appropriately called breast milk because the heart is behind the breast part of the chest. You know, making it inclusive in a sweet and wholesome way.
Please tell me you’re on a wind-up.
Dione2594 · 07/06/2021 20:42

I think we're replacing words when we should be reappropriating them instead. Eg, some non-heterosexual couples try to raise their children with one of them being a 'father-figure' in this sense they are still a woman, identify as a woman but also as a father.
Breastmilk is applicable to all in the sense that men, women and human beings in general, have breasts, they can have breast cancer so they have breast tissue albeit less protruding.
So the term breast feeding can be appropriated as a way the baby is held close to the heart even when being fed with a bottle that is appropriately called breast milk because the heart is behind the breast part of the chest. You know, making it inclusive in a sweet and wholesome way.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 20:42

It's a gradual attempt to uncouple the words 'women', 'mother' 'she' 'her' and eventually 'female' from their exclusive use by the female sex class in order to be inclusive of males who wish to use them.

Thin end of the wedge. Boiling a frog. Take your pick of metaphor.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

What are your preferred pronouns?

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Gender: Female (including trans woman)
Male (including trans man)
Non - binary
Prefer not to say

Drip, drip, drip, drip

"Woman=adult human female" is a transphobic dog whistle; a TW being 'a male who identifies as a woman' ditto.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Homosexuality is when people are attracted to people of the same gender

Drip, drip, drip, drip

A lesbian can be a female who is exclusively sexually attracted to other females AND a male who identifies as a female attracted to females AND a male who identifies as a female attracted to a male who identifies as a female.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

People with a Cervix , menstruator, vagina haver, birthing parent, remove the female symbol from Always, ovulator, vulva owner

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Women's prizes, women's shortlists, women's sports, women's refuges, changing rooms toilets, hospital wards, open to anyone who 'identifies as a woman'

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Draft a bill on maternity leave for government ministers using gender neutral language

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Police forces/CPS charge criminals based on their self declared gender identity

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Equal treatment bench book : use the pronouns/name in line with the gender identity of the accused

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Newspapers following ipso rules report crimes based on gender identity rather than sex of perpetrators

Drip, drip, drip, drip

TW with a GRC housed automatically in women's prisons

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Men who identify as women but without a GRC also housed in women's prisons

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Ministry of Justice brought to court by a woman prisoner over TW who go on to sexually assault women in women's prison

Drip, drip, drip, drip...

This is a fantastic post. Brilliantly makes the point that it's not just "one tweet", it's so much more. Which we all know perfectly well. No patience with some of the disingenuous posts on this thread, but it's worth reading for this one. Thank you ANewCreation

I really need to work out how to use the quote function though

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 20:32

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes you have. And it's important to reach the many people that just read this without responding. This is how change happens. As we have already started to see.

Exactly. The sort of posters who merail forum threads for hours with pointless and disingenuous nitpicking of the wording of posts and a thorough focus on their uninteresting personal take on the matter always at least provide the opportunity to restate what the problems/issues are for a new audience.

Oh nothing pointless or disingenuous about this post! Or cutting and pasting selectively, no, you’re on a much higher ground.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 20:31

I’ve just realised you too did a very selective cut and paste!

Well yes, because I was adding the bit that you didn't Confused  you have no insight into the impact on lifeturnsonadime's daughter, so she made a perfectly reasonable conclusion, given your dismissive attitude to the social media posts in question.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 20:27

Yes you have. And it's important to reach the many people that just read this without responding. This is how change happens. As we have already started to see.

Exactly. The sort of posters who merail forum threads for hours with pointless and disingenuous nitpicking of the wording of posts and a thorough focus on their uninteresting personal take on the matter always at least provide the opportunity to restate what the problems/issues are for a new audience.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 20:21

@Ereshkigalangcleg

That’s almost exact what I said:

Except it wasn't all of it as you then said:

But I do feel like I have to point out again, I’m not arguing it’s not happening at all. I’m saying it’s not happening in a way that impacts in any huge way, it’s not a widespread issue.

You didn't quote the rest of your post, Pumper... who are you to decide what the impact is?

I’ve just realised you too did a very selective cut and paste!
Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 20:20

@Ereshkigalangcleg

That’s almost exact what I said:

Except it wasn't all of it as you then said:

But I do feel like I have to point out again, I’m not arguing it’s not happening at all. I’m saying it’s not happening in a way that impacts in any huge way, it’s not a widespread issue.

You didn't quote the rest of your post, Pumper... who are you to decide what the impact is?

I completely see your point, and I appreciate how language changing must impact your daughter. I also appreciate that other people with autism may not have parents around them to help them navigate issues like this. That charity should have known better.

But I do feel like I have to point out again, I’m not arguing it’s not happening at all. I’m saying it’s not happening in a way that impacts in any huge way, it’s not a widespread issue. That one autism charity should know better, but what about all the other autism charities, are they all doing the same thing?

Just for you @Ereshkigalangcleg - I’d say I’m just as qualified as you to decide what the impact one tweet from one charity has on the world.

MarshaBradyo · 07/06/2021 20:18

@ANewCreation

It's a gradual attempt to uncouple the words 'women', 'mother' 'she' 'her' and eventually 'female' from their exclusive use by the female sex class in order to be inclusive of males who wish to use them.

Thin end of the wedge. Boiling a frog. Take your pick of metaphor.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

What are your preferred pronouns?

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Gender: Female (including trans woman)
Male (including trans man)
Non - binary
Prefer not to say

Drip, drip, drip, drip

"Woman=adult human female" is a transphobic dog whistle; a TW being 'a male who identifies as a woman' ditto.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Homosexuality is when people are attracted to people of the same gender

Drip, drip, drip, drip

A lesbian can be a female who is exclusively sexually attracted to other females AND a male who identifies as a female attracted to females AND a male who identifies as a female attracted to a male who identifies as a female.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

People with a Cervix , menstruator, vagina haver, birthing parent, remove the female symbol from Always, ovulator, vulva owner

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Women's prizes, women's shortlists, women's sports, women's refuges, changing rooms toilets, hospital wards, open to anyone who 'identifies as a woman'

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Draft a bill on maternity leave for government ministers using gender neutral language

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Police forces/CPS charge criminals based on their self declared gender identity

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Equal treatment bench book : use the pronouns/name in line with the gender identity of the accused

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Newspapers following ipso rules report crimes based on gender identity rather than sex of perpetrators

Drip, drip, drip, drip

TW with a GRC housed automatically in women's prisons

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Men who identify as women but without a GRC also housed in women's prisons

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Ministry of Justice brought to court by a woman prisoner over TW who go on to sexually assault women in women's prison

Drip, drip, drip, drip...

Exactly! Worth quoting whole thing as very well said.
ANewCreation · 07/06/2021 20:15

It's a gradual attempt to uncouple the words 'women', 'mother' 'she' 'her' and eventually 'female' from their exclusive use by the female sex class in order to be inclusive of males who wish to use them.

Thin end of the wedge. Boiling a frog. Take your pick of metaphor.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

What are your preferred pronouns?

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Gender: Female (including trans woman)
Male (including trans man)
Non - binary
Prefer not to say

Drip, drip, drip, drip

"Woman=adult human female" is a transphobic dog whistle; a TW being 'a male who identifies as a woman' ditto.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Homosexuality is when people are attracted to people of the same gender

Drip, drip, drip, drip

A lesbian can be a female who is exclusively sexually attracted to other females AND a male who identifies as a female attracted to females AND a male who identifies as a female attracted to a male who identifies as a female.

Drip, drip, drip, drip

People with a Cervix , menstruator, vagina haver, birthing parent, remove the female symbol from Always, ovulator, vulva owner

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Women's prizes, women's shortlists, women's sports, women's refuges, changing rooms toilets, hospital wards, open to anyone who 'identifies as a woman'

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Draft a bill on maternity leave for government ministers using gender neutral language

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Police forces/CPS charge criminals based on their self declared gender identity

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Equal treatment bench book : use the pronouns/name in line with the gender identity of the accused

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Newspapers following ipso rules report crimes based on gender identity rather than sex of perpetrators

Drip, drip, drip, drip

TW with a GRC housed automatically in women's prisons

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Men who identify as women but without a GRC also housed in women's prisons

Drip, drip, drip, drip

Ministry of Justice brought to court by a woman prisoner over TW who go on to sexually assault women in women's prison

Drip, drip, drip, drip...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 20:14

That’s almost exact what I said:

Except it wasn't all of it as you then said:

But I do feel like I have to point out again, I’m not arguing it’s not happening at all. I’m saying it’s not happening in a way that impacts in any huge way, it’s not a widespread issue.

You didn't quote the rest of your post, Pumper... who are you to decide what the impact is?

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 20:14

@lifeturnsonadime

You said it doesn't impact in a huge way.

To me it does. Not sending a clear message can harm women and girls who do not understand they need the smear test. That is a huge impact on vulnerable people who need clear language in order to not miss essential health screening.

The impact of this is that vulnerable women and girls might well suffer harm.

If that is not enough for you to see that precise and clear language is required then it is logical for me to conclude that you don't care that it might harm because it's not widespread & according to you doesn't impact in a huge way.

You accused me of saying it doesn’t cause harm though. Where did I say that?
lifeturnsonadime · 07/06/2021 20:13

You said it doesn't impact in a huge way.

To me it does. Not sending a clear message can harm women and girls who do not understand they need the smear test. That is a huge impact on vulnerable people who need clear language in order to not miss essential health screening.

The impact of this is that vulnerable women and girls might well suffer harm.

If that is not enough for you to see that precise and clear language is required then it is logical for me to conclude that you don't care that it might harm because it's not widespread & according to you doesn't impact in a huge way.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 20:11

I’m really shocked at how you’ve gone on and on at the mother of an autistic child, trying to trip her up and wear her down when it’s clear that this is a personal and emotional issue for her, whereas for you it’s just a constant dismissive refrain of “not a widespread problem - nothing to see here”.

I wonder how many disenfranchised women it will take before you consider it worthy of your concern.

This.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 20:08

@lifeturnsonadime

But you don't care because you have said it doesn't cause harm. It does.If you will accept that it causes harm then we might be able to meet somewhere in the middle.

While you keep minimising the impact of these issues then we can't.

Where did I say it doesn’t cause harm?
lifeturnsonadime · 07/06/2021 20:07

But you don't care because you have said it doesn't cause harm. It does.If you will accept that it causes harm then we might be able to meet somewhere in the middle.

While you keep minimising the impact of these issues then we can't.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 20:04

@lifeturnsonadime

Pumper I'm not bullying you. Will you stop with the ridiculous allegations.

I really don't get what the problem is I have explained why I find what you said offensive. It is offensive.

You’ve explained why your misinterpretation of it is offensive to you, but that’s still not what I said. And still no apology for the accusations you’re still slinging my way, like this one: I have told you why autistic women like my daughter won't know this applies to them and you don't care