If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article

No, it is the one updated on the 29th April 2021.

gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2021-03/atisn14841doc1.pdf

Do you mean this policy? I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that, while that nasty inclusive language is used, so is the word 'breastfeeding' and indeed 'mother'. The reference to 'chestfeeding' is a small footnote, which explains that some trans or non-binary individuals may prefer the term.

I really can't see anything to panic about here.

Welsh Government HR Policies and Procedures. The word mother or woman is not mentioned once but father is, this is a policy about maternity.

Their 'New and Expectant Mothers Policy' has been renamed 'Policy for Pregnant or Nursing Employees' and there are specific references within it to chestfeeding.

@RedDogsBeg it also says mothers and women, am I on the wrong document?

@RedDogsBeg it’s ok, I’ve been back on and it says Breastfeeding on the very first page::

gov.wales/maternity-services-strategy-2019-2024

Yes, I’d say that’s fair. I don’t think we should spend loads of time wondering about what might happen if language is eradicated, and I can’t see any evidence that’s it’s happening.

And thank you for the debate. Agree to disagree and all that.

This is why Stonewall is problematic. These discussions would not have been necessary but for the attempts of Stonewall to change language.

As I stated upthread. Stonewall has done nothing to help transexual people who have been thrown under the bus along with women and girls.

They are gender non conforming men.

Gender non conformity and transsexualism are not the same thing. I do agree though the vast majority apply the trans label to non conformity.

it's not very inclusive language for women with poor literary, EAL, learning difficulties etc who require transparent and clear terms like woman and mother.

I dont think 'pregnant people' is much more difficult to understand then women and mother. 'People' is on the list of 100 most common words in English. If anyone did need help to understand it then I'd hazard a guess that they'd have help to translate or explain all of the rest of the literature too, so there'd be ample opportunity to explain.

Well, why is it so important? You’re still working under this idea that people aren’t using words like ‘girl’ and ‘women’ but they are. So with that in mind, why is this particular issue (‘pregnant employees’ over ‘mothers’) such a big deal?

The Welsh Policy on Maternity removed all references to the word mother or pregnant women, but the word father got a mention though, surprise, surprise no attempt to erase men and their role. The policy refers to chestfeeding not breastfeeding, but no it's not happening language is not being changed, nothing to see here move on.

Maternity - comes from the Latin root mater which means mother. Maternity Leave and Policies are for mothers the clue is in the title.

So there is the difference. I believe that transwomen are a subset of men. They are gender non conforming men.

It is not possible to change sex.

If you believe that the word woman includes men who identify as women then you are not concerned about the change in the meaning of the word woman and the implications it might have on the way we describe ourselves as a sex class.

You obviously also believe that transmen are a subset of men and think that their need to be validated is adequate to change the language we use around giving birth and motherhood. Despite the fact that it is their sexed bodies that give birth not their gender identity.

At least I now understand your beliefs Pumper. I don't agree with you but thank you for explaining the root of our differences in opinion.

I absolutely believe sex-based oppression exists. I believe transwomen are a ‘sub-section’ (or branch?) of women. I believe trans men are a branch of ‘men’. I don’t believe you can change biological sex. I don’t see why some transwomen existing stops us fighting sex-based oppression, because I haven’t seen any evidence that it does.

Pumper we all keep telling you why it is important.

You are not listening.

If you cannot define the words you need to described sex based oppression then you cannot fight sex based oppression.

Ignore this at your peril.

You may be comfortable with it but most women know that we need to have precise and clear language to fight sex based oppression.

How do YOU think we can fight sex based oppression in a world where the words Woman & Girls include people with penises? Do you not believe that sex based oppression exists? If a transwoman is a woman then please define the word Woman for me Pumper, see the problem now?

If a transman is so uncomfortable and triggered by the word mother then I would surmise they have much bigger issues to worry about than being referred to, correctly, as a mother.

As I said, the trans debate is absolutely a conversation worth having. I just don’t -agree that this is a hill to die on.

The erasure of the language needed to fight sex based oppression is, thankfully, a hill many women are prepared to die on.

If you think it is possible to fight sex based oppression if you can't define what a woman or what a girl is anymore or speak about material reality then I believe you come from a very privileged position.

Gender based language comes from a position of privilege. In the developing world everyone knows what a girl is, they are the ones that miss out on education, are treated as chattels subjected to horrific FGM and raped and murdered because of their sex not their gender identity.

The people you seek to protect with so called inclusive language know fully well that it is their sex not their gender ID that enables them to be pregnant. Despite not wanting to be 'women' they are using their bodies to do a thing that only women and mothers can do.

What is it you want me to google because you’ve none of your own evidence? I already googled the thing about stonewall putting companies off dealing with them, which you seem to deny is happening. Are they leaving stonewall or not? And if they are, what’s your issue?

To the poster who said this isn't a risk in real life, I think the women who have been sexually assaulted and raped by males in women's prisons may disagree with you. As would girls in women's toilets in Fife. And no, these are not isolated incidents.

Ok I’ll leave you all to the joys of Pumper

Or you’re just irritating as hell, take your pick. Couldn’t you google it? What’s wrong with you

I wouldn't waste your time. It's a deliberate derailing approach.

Pumper
Oh my Lord. Why do you need so much help? Scroll back, cut and paste the words in the post and find what you are interested in.

Go!